Jess (00:02.156)
Welcome back to another episode of How to 20 Something, where today invites on a guest who wrote a book that answers the questions we’re all secretly asking. And that’s basically on what nobody tells you about life after graduation. That’s not the name of her book, but it is what we’ll be discussing today, as well as the truths behind what no one tells you. So something you guys hear me talk a lot about is how confusing this decade is. And that’s partly due to everything being brand new.

Partly due to everyone venturing on entirely different paths and partly because no one has any idea what they’re actually doing. And don’t worry, if you’re not a recent graduate, this conversation is going to still apply to you because we’re gonna be diving into knowing when it’s time to change directions or commit to your current path, how to navigate uncertainty when stability and structure disappears, and what your professors didn’t tell you about adulting.

But before you get all of those truth bombs and information, I’m going to introduce who you’re even listening to today. Christiane Paupin, affectionally known as Professor CP, is a professor, author, speaker, artist, and creative at heart. She spent two decades as a Fortune 500 sales executive before becoming a clinical director of marketing at Georgia State University.

Where she mentors more than 200 students each semester navigating their first career chapters. At a Pivotal Crossroads, she customized a van named Mili Millicent and drove 45,000 miles across the US to paint the horizon in all 50 states. Today, she’s a professional artist, founder of Palpin Art, a creative studio in Atlanta, and a dot connector. I love that, a dot connector for anyone standing at the edge of their now what moment.

Her book, Cue the Lifeboat, is her roadmap for navigating uncertainty with honesty, intention, and courage. Hi Christiane, and welcome to How to Twenty Something.

CP (02:05.646)
Yes, thank you so much. And I’m really excited about our conversation.

Jess (02:09.902)
I am too. And I’m happy we connected so that I could bring you on. And I really just wanna jump the gun a little bit and get right to the point by asking you this first question of what do you think no one tells you about life after graduation?

CP (02:27.812)
Yes, I am I think both you and I have a lot of passion about the twenty somethings. You’re right in the middle of it. And I’ve always been really passionate about that decade because of that very question, what no one ever tells you. And I remember when I was in my twenties feeling around in this fog of that decade, going, What am I supposed to be doing? And what no one ever tells you is the very fact that life is not linear.

And we are raised to really be in a linear a linear trajectory. You go from kindergarten to first grade to second grade. And it’s kind of this march in this linear progression until you’re 18 years old, or maybe even 23 years old. And then at some point there’s that humongous cliff drop off where you’re like, wait a second, we’re not marching in this linear progression anymore. And it’s shocking to the system.

It’s really shocking. So I can go into that in a lot of depth if you would like. But to me, it’s that very phrase of the fact that life is not linear, but we are trained to be linear. And then you you experience the roller coaster after that.

Jess (03:42.615)
Yeah, that’s exactly what I say. Is like you spent the first 18 to 22 years of your life going through the exact same motions as everyone around you, always being told what to do, where to be, and what was next. And then you graduate and you’re left to figure it out for yourself. And nobody taught you these skills to be able to do so. And then I also think we’ve been kind of forced into this idea or this.

CP (03:50.093)
Mm.

CP (03:56.218)
Correct.

CP (04:00.824)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Jess (04:12.79)
this alternate universe idea of adulthood of you go to school, you get a job, you buy a house, you fall in love, you have a family, and you kind of just you go through those motions, those stepping stones in that way, in that order. And when you start to enter your 20s yourself, you realize, wait, am I failing because I’m not going in that order? Or am I doing something wrong? Because some people are going in that order. Some people are going out of order. Some people are adding in new things and it’s not part of that order at all. So

CP (04:24.176)
Mm, mm-hmm.

CP (04:33.616)
Mm.

Jess (04:42.2)
I’d love to know how you help people kind of redefine that kind of roadmap of you say like life isn’t linear, and I agree, but how do we break down those preconceived notions that we’re told our whole life of, no, it is, it’s going to be linear. You just wait and see, and then you waited and see, and you’re like, I’m still waiting to see what linear progression this is supposed to be.

CP (04:50.65)
No.

CP (05:02.122)
Yeah. You’re like, wait a second, somehow I missed that boat. You know, Jess, I it’s my assumption that I think life used to be a little bit more linear. Maybe 50 years ago, kind in that great American time frame where things seem to be a hint more linear. I think someone from that time period might say to me, no, no, you’re incorrect.

Jess (05:08.268)
Yeah.

CP (05:31.429)
But it seems because life moved as sort of a measurable progression. And now you can see in the last in your lifetime that the frenetic nature of change has moved at such a rate that nothing is static. So instead of being on a trail, a progressive trail in the woods, let’s say, like on a hike.

We’re more in a river now where you are in the currents and there are rock and there’s shallows and there’s and so it’s you’re progressing, but sometimes it loops around. And so I really feel that that is really more of where we are now as opposed to this static progression. In the very opening of my book, I go back to a scene.

When I was graduating from college and I was looking at a magazine, and in the magazine there was this comic, and it was a single pane comic of a graduate standing on the edge of a ship, and it was basically the mother ship, if you will. And there was a diving board coming off that ship, and the graduate was in the cap and gown and getting ready to dive into the ocean. And you could see in the far away horizon of the comic.

all these other graduates that had dove into the ocean. And so to me, that’s what that that period is like is you’re on that diving board in your cap and gown and you’re getting ready to dive into that ocean. And so there is a lot of undulation that goes with that.

Jess (07:19.84)
Yeah, I haven’t used this analogy in a while, but it’s pretty much exactly that where I’d say your twenties is like you being dropped in the middle of the ocean and there’s no land in sight. So you’re like, I don’t know I could go any direction, but I don’t know which direction to go. So you kind of just start treading the water exactly where you are. And then coaching helps you pick a direction and follow it. It’s like you’re gonna reach land eventually. You gotta just commit to what decision you’re making right now and see it through to

CP (07:28.104)
huh.

CP (07:33.902)
Correct.

That’s right.

CP (07:41.38)
That’s right.

Jess (07:49.376)
A different solution that you might not know of yet.

CP (07:52.951)
That’s right. That’s right. And you know, it is very scary being in the ocean. And so th in my book, Cue the Lifeboat, it’s all ocean metaphors through the whole thing. Because when you dive into that ocean from the mothership, there are sharks and rip currents and doldrums and scary things, things that you don’t even know exist below the surface.

Jess (08:02.987)
I love that.

CP (08:21.528)
And so then you’re floating there by yourself, going, what do I do next? And so the book, the whole book, is written in chapters in which you can navigate the order of the chapters any way you want. Because it’s a choose your own adventure, because the book is not linear. It matches that of life. Life is not linear, the book is not linear. So you can go and choose your own adventure through the book.

Because there are tools in each of these chapters that help you that when you’re bobbing alone in that ocean after you’ve dove in, there are tools to help you then progress to where you have what you need to continue moving in the direction that you want to go.

Jess (09:15.648)
It’s beautiful. It’s very poetic in that sense. I might have to add it to the list of my my self-help book club and books that we read.

CP (09:24.156)
100%. Plus, it’s really fun because there’s two other things. The book is written in second person. So you are the one going through all of the adventures. They’re true adventures, they’re true stories that have happened to me personally. But you it feels like you are going through them and experiencing them. And then each chapter takes place in a different location around the world. So you’re actually traveling the world, experiencing these moments.

And then there’s lessons at the end that help to punctuate that message.

Jess (09:56.996)
fantastic. Yeah, I I feel like I’m too type A to go out of order when it comes to reading a choose your own adventure book. So that’ll be the only thing is I have to read it start to finish in the order it was written.

CP (10:08.812)
Okay, so Jess, I am finding that there is a number of people out there that go, I tried to do out of order and it really bugged me. So then I started again and read read in order. Some people love it, some people don’t. The beautiful part is you can go linear. It’s okay.

Jess (10:14.52)
Ha ha.

Jess (10:17.934)
Yep.

Jess (10:21.952)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Just know that you don’t have to because life isn’t linear. Now, what I do want to ask you next is kind of goes pairs off the analogy I was saying is like a coach helps you pick a direction and choose, but not everyone works with a coach. And I know like I picked my direction without working with a coach of leaving my corporate job and like just committing to my decision, but also have hit my own rough patches along the way. And sometimes we take a rough patch, and my clients have done this too as a

CP (10:25.306)
Yeah.

Jess (10:51.712)
Sign that something isn’t working or that we need to stop or we need to change directions and should just give up, try something new, try something different. Other times, a rough patch is something that you should work through and it’ll make you stronger as a result and keeps you going, almost like a test from the universe that you need to pass that you keep going in that direction. How can someone decide for themselves whether it’s time to give up or pivot? Maybe not give up entirely, but

Change directions or push through this seemingly harder chapter or season.

CP (11:27.652)
Yes, that’s one of my very favorite questions in life. That is the if you can figure that out, that is one of the most beautiful and difficult paradox of life. And so I actually wrote two chapters about that in my book. One is called Changing Course, and the other is called

The grass is greener where you water it. So the first is about a scenario where the character who is going through the book is in a really difficult career situation. And they’re being taken advantage of, and there’s a lot of really, really tough stuff. But when you get and ultimately at the end of the chapter, the person.

decides to pivot. The propeller plan at the end really helps the reader to go, what is it about that moment where you decide to pivot rather than to stay? And for me, there were five things that I ask at the end of the chapter that these are questions you can ask yourself. And number one, is it conflicting with your values?

Is it something that makes you move against what you really truly believe in? Number two, does it breach your boundaries? Are you is it permeating and are you losing yourself because of this situation? Does it drain your energy?

Are you, you know, there’s an actually another chapter that’s all about recharging your battery and and and that whole need to recharge? But does it drain your energy more than it gives to you? And are you operating more from your negatives than your strengths? Is it limiting your personal growth, your personal and professional growth? And is it taking a toll on your health?

CP (13:47.921)
So these are five things that when you’re in that really moment, is it conflicting it with your values, breaching your boundaries, draining your energy, limiting your growth, and taking a toll on your health? Okay. So at the end of every chapter, you have a moment where you can read through those questions and go, shh, is it doing that? But then contrastingly, I have another chapter called The Grass is Greener Where You Water.

Because sometimes we’re always looking over that fence, but you really have to water what you’ve been given. You have seeds in your hand. Are you planting them and are you fertilizing them and are you watering them? Are you and we again we’re in this frenetic energy, fast-paced culture. And sometimes we forget to water what we have. And so the three questions that I ask at the end of that chapter is.

Identifying what you can nurture. Even though you’re really going through these stuck moments, what is it? What is it that you can nurture? And where can you invest in consistent care? And then taking notes and observing the change in yourself and your surroundings. So I’ll give you an example that when I was driving my 45,000 miles on my van trip across the United States, there were many.

many moments when I wanted to quit. my gosh, I wanted to quit because it was hot or I’d break down or you know, I had black water dump all over me, or, you know, just or the being alone and tired and, you know, just lots and lots of things. I could go into lots of details about how hard that trip was. But then when I go back to okay

Is it conflicting with my values? No. Is it breaching my boundaries? No. Is it draining my energy? Well, maybe, but how can I rebuild my energy? Is it limiting my growth? No. And is it taking a toll on my health? No. So I was able to use these questions to keep pushing and finished painting in all 50 states.

Jess (15:59.491)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (16:05.223)
Yeah. I was listening to a diary of a CEO podcast recently and it was with Alex Harmozzi. And he was speaking more from the perspective of being an entrepreneur is like, when is it time to completely like change directions in your business of like this isn’t working? Or are you just hitting a slow period? Because slow periods come way more often than you want them to. And he had said it as though is what you’re doing.

CP (16:27.908)
man.

Jess (16:32.556)
Or like, have you experienced success with what you’re doing before and it’s just a slow period? Or is th are things just not working and you need to change it up? And that that kind of puts some things into perspective for me, just as an entrepreneur, is like, all right, if I keep doing what I’ve been doing and I’ve had great success with it and it’s just a slow period or like the economy changes, do I just need to ride out this slow period? Or do I need to

Actually look at what I’m doing and try some different tactics or change directions. Maybe not give up on my business entirely. Don’t worry, guys. I’m not giving up on my business ever. but more of like, do I need different team members? Do I need to look at something new that I haven’t been looking at or giving attention to in how my business is set up? And it’s not taking it as a sign to quit being an entrepreneur altogether and or like change businesses entirely. It’s more of a

CP (17:12.59)
Yeah, yeah.

Jess (17:28.01)
make some alterations to generate some different versions of success as you move forward.

CP (17:33.283)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There’s two things that come to mind when you say all that. Number one is you use the word perspective. And I think we undervalue perspective and how much it’s needed in our own lives. And the second chapter of my book is actually titled Perspective. And I was in a really difficult period of life.

And went to Europe and ended up going through a castle all by myself on a Monday. The gardener unlocked the door for me and I just was walking through the castle. And suddenly I was really able to see my life in a whole new light. And I climbed the stairs of the turret and went and sat on the very roof of the castle.

For a long time. And I could see the Loire River snaking through the valley and birds were flying everywhere. And I remember thinking, why do I feel like I have a renewed focus, a renewed perspective? And that it really changed my whole life, but I didn’t understand why. And it really took decades until I was actually writing that chapter.

To realize how important perspective is to take those moments, really, really intentional moments, of just pulling back. And you don’t have to go to a castle in Europe. You don’t have to, you don’t have to, you could sit in a different chair in your living room. You could sit, go and sit in a park with your feet in the grass. Just take a moment to pull away from your life because you can get so myopic, right? You’re like,

Got this next podcast and I’ve got to write this and I’ve got to coach this person. I’ve got to all these things. But even if we give ourselves just 15 minutes regularly to get that focus and that perspective, then it can help give you, it can help clear that fog.

Jess (19:46.509)
Yeah, I feel like we get tunnel vision to our own life. And then we become our own obstacle or our biggest obstacle. And you’re just like, wait, someone else looking in is like, how about you do this? And then you’re like, my God, that changed everything. And it’s because you’re so linearly focused on what you’re doing and based off of your experiences that you’re not taking into account what else could also be true.

CP (19:49.444)
Mm-hmm. Aha.

CP (20:01.082)
That’s right.

CP (20:12.536)
And Jess, you just talked about someone else giving you that idea. And one thing you talk about, like in your TEDx talk or in some of your podcasts, is that isolating that 20-somethings do. But if you have that outside counsel, really good quality, thoughtful outside counsel, it can help break up.

Jess (20:23.778)
Mm-hmm.

CP (20:35.64)
the our myopic way of seeing things too close and it can help to give you that new perspective. So having allies in your life is really a very important factor. So you brought that was an a interesting thing that you brought up.

Jess (20:53.112)
Yeah. Do you think on the topic of like being linear myopic and the way that you view your life, do you think that also has translated to the way you see your students view their career?

CP (21:07.414)
I think that the myth of a linear career, people have gotten the memo. That third is not a linear career. So I’m starting to see students think that it is going to be a little bit more undulating. A lot of Gen Zers are really excited about being entrepreneurs. More, I think more than any other generation. They are really have a lot of entrepreneurial grit.

Jess (21:28.483)
Mm-hmm.

CP (21:37.477)
What I am seeing though with Gen Zers is that they feel behind all their peers. And I that it bothers me that Gen Zers feel that way. I think probably more than any other generation they feel that way because you have such a a daily view of other people’s lives. And that’s why you’re feeling behind. Also, you’ve marched together.

So far in life, and then you dive off into the ocean. And at that point, everybody goes in their own directions. And so I I I do think that there is a lot of understanding about careers not being linear. But I think that it’s really somethings find it really important.

to achieve what they perceive as success quickly. So there’s there’s an we could go on that for a long time, Jess. We could talk about that for five podcast episodes.

Jess (22:39.757)
Yeah.

Jess (22:44.142)
Yeah. I mean, I would say with my clients, mainly within the last year, year and a half, it there’s been a large sense of I n it’s like two things. It’s one of I know I need a full time job right now to help me be able to run my own business. I don’t have any money and I need money to be able to do that. But it is going into the corporate world with the immediate mission of this is temporary and it’s to fund.

my business that I want. They want a sense of ownership in what they’re creating and the time that they’re spending doing something and working under someone else or for a corporation. You just you really don’t have nothing’s yours. It’s like your job belongs to someone else. All the work you’re doing is for someone else. So there’s that sense of ownership that they crave. And then it’s the other part of that is I’ll have clients that’ll be very frustrated of I went to school for four years.

CP (23:17.1)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jess (23:41.271)
And got this degree. And now these jobs are not related to what I went to school for at all. And it’s like that balance of that felt like a waste of time to get that degree. And I have to remind them, like, no, it wasn’t. Like, college gives you so many life skills. There’s so many other elements to it. And then I give my own example of I have an interior design degree. I went to school for interior design. I worked for two.

CP (23:48.088)
Mm.

CP (23:52.176)
Mm.

Jess (24:07.32)
two and a half years and then I left it entirely and I don’t even do it a little bit. So it’s a you don’t know the career you’re picking at 18 for when you have to declare a major is gonna be the career you’re gonna have even at the age of 25. Like for me example of left my job on my 25th birthday to go run my own business. So there’s there’s those both sides is like my degree should be the work that I do, but also I wanna do my own thing.

CP (24:12.375)
Ha ha ha.

CP (24:35.352)
Yes, yes. And you are 100% correct that what you learn in a college experience, the majority of it informs you and your life decisions and your career decisions. It is those out it is the frame of what you learn. It’s the framework of learning interpersonal skills, communication skills, presentation skills, organization skills, how to adult.

It is your training for all of those things. And then what you learn, the content itself, it’s twofold. One is it it may not be the direction of your career, and that is fine, but it’s interesting that it may actually inform how you handle your career. So when you say interior design and what you learned, and you don’t use it at all now.

Jess (25:04.235)
Mm-hmm.

CP (25:34.405)
And don’t plan to, or even dabble in it a little bit, you would be interesting to see it’d be interesting to go back to see what you learned and how it informs how you run your business now. The creativity that you bring to your business, the structure that you bring to your business, all of those things you learn. You may not be dealing with window treatments, but you’re dealing with the the fiction.

Jess (25:47.502)
Mm.

CP (26:01.924)
These just window treatments in your own business, you know?

Jess (26:05.164)
Yeah, no, I agree. And I there has been overlap just coincidentally of who I attract. I attract a lot of creative people. It’s like, okay, we need to work on your portfolio and your personal logo and your branding. And like I had a whole class that taught that while I was in school. So it’s like there is that I just I mean more the literal I was designing multi-million dollar houses and I’m not doing that.

CP (26:08.696)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

CP (26:21.485)
One hundred percent.

CP (26:29.978)
But it is interesting to see where and and you don’t know what you might be doing in your 30s and 40s. You might be able to go back to that and say, I am so glad I did that because it’s informing what I’m doing in these decades. My undergrad degree was in communications, believe it or not. And that was pre-marketing, pre-professional sales degrees, pre all those things.

And then I went into financial services and I went, what? There’s no correlation. You know, I had I tripped and like tripped and fell in a figurative sense into a corporate financial services job. And I thought, just school for four years for communications. What? But interestingly, I was promoted shortly after starting my job in the financial services organization. I was promoted to a sales position.

And then I went back and thought, wow, all that I learned in my communications degree is really coming into play now in this position. And then I use those skills even today. So it’s interesting that you can start weaving what you’ve learned and the fabric of what you’ve learned through your life.

Jess (27:46.713)
Or even doing the like, well, if this didn’t happen, then I wouldn’t be here. And if that didn’t happen, I wouldn’t be here. It’s like, okay, I needed a crappy interior design job to tell me that I hated Orlando and like use that as and lose my job to find my passion and like all and I’ve talked about this on my podcast countless times. Like how everything that in the moment seemed to be going horribly wrong and felt like the biggest struggle of my life set me up to one be the best coach for

CP (27:59.291)
Yes.

Mm-hmm. huh.

Jess (28:16.224)
Other 20-somethings going through their adulting experience. And two, to be able to move to Charlotte and pursue a business and have so much passion and life behind the work that I do. But it’s like that was not even remotely at the top of my mind when I was just graduating college. I was stressed beyond belief trying to get a job so I didn’t have to move back home. No hate to people who move back home. My home life situation at the time just didn’t warrant that possibility.

CP (28:26.297)
Exactly.

CP (28:37.04)
Huh?

CP (28:42.352)
I like your little clause there. You know, yeah, absolutely, Jess. It’s it’s like when you’re going through those really tough experiences in Florida, at the moment you’re you’re thinking, This is horrible. This is really a horrible thing. But if you had the choice to go back and relive that time and take out all of those horrible things.

Jess (28:45.479)
Yeah.

Jess (28:59.864)
Mm-hmm.

CP (29:12.484)
wouldn’t be the great coach you are today. So another Go ahead, go ahead.

Jess (29:14.988)
Yep. Yeah. I get asked I get asked a lot if I think if I hadn’t lost my job and found personal training or anything, like if I would have eventually started my own business. And I was like, yes. Would it have been at the age of 25? Probably not. But things happen faster when you’re unemployed and hating your life and you want to make you want to change things up. And you find what that change is and you go for it.

CP (29:32.608)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.

Jess (29:42.947)
But I also say that if I could go back in time, I would still probably tell 18-year-old Jess to not pick interior design as a major. I would probably have gone more into athletic training or nutrition type of degree and sought that out. Cause interior design is just so left field for me when it really comes down to it. But even knowing that of picking something like being an athletic trainer or I probably wouldn’t have been a physical therapist.

CP (29:43.13)
That’s right.

CP (30:03.257)
Okay.

Jess (30:11.224)
truthfully, because that I had my mom’s an OT and I just had no interest in that whatsoever, even though it’s a lot of the work I do with my personal training clients now. but I definitely would have done more of the health and fitness side of things because that’s where I’ve always had a passion. And even saying that, I probably still would have eventually started my own business. So it was it was in the cards no matter what.

CP (30:15.214)
Okay. Okay.

CP (30:24.336)
Sure, here, sure.

CP (30:32.122)
Sure. You know, Jess, that’s the thing though, is I think that we discover passions and things that we want to do through every decade of life. And that’s one thing that I tell my students, always continue discovering passions, discovering new things, creating experiencing new things. I tell my students, add one new thing to your resume every year. Because if you stop growing at a certain

Point, then you’re stagnating, and that is a very dangerous place to be in life. So I think that’s what’s really admirable about you, Jess, is that you really embrace movement. And even if it’s just teensy tiny steps, you’re moving, and that movement is informing your next decision. I want to go back too to your Florida experience. I wrote a chapter in Cue the Lifeboat called.

Thing, bad thing. And that was an experience in my life where I had a near death experience. And I was at a client visit and dragged into the hospital and went into emergency heart surgery. And it was, it was, it was a life and death situation. And at the time, I could have said, this is a horrible thing, because I was at

The top of my career, I was a Fortune 200 leader and really enjoying my job, enjoying my career, enjoying my team. And all of a sudden I hit a brick wall in life. And that could have been a really bad thing. But I look back now that all that has transpired since then, and it actually was a really good thing.

And so that’s I really encourage people that when you’re going through those good things and bad things of life to to draw back and not really name them either as good or bad, because they could really the bad things, what we perceive as the bad things, can turn out to be the best thing for you. Now, would I ever want to go through the near-death experience again? No. But I

CP (32:54.688)
wouldn’t I I I’m I’m grateful for it. Incredibly grateful for it.

Jess (33:00.524)
Yeah. And I feel the same way of like all the crappy moments that have hit mainly through my twenties. It’s like, would I wish that on my worst enemy? Absolutely not. That was awful. Don’t I don’t recommend anyone follow my path in life. But would I change anything aside from how I mentioned I would change my degree? Like, no, I would not go back and like choose a different thing of like, I wish I never lost my job during the pandemic. It’s like, no, I’m actually that would turn into such a blessing in disguise.

CP (33:09.802)
Ha ha ha

Jess (33:28.514)
But I also know that that doesn’t happen for everyone. It’s what you do with that time that changes things. It’s like I spent that first month of being unemployed, losing my mind and rotting in my bed. I didn’t know what to do. I couldn’t do anything. Everything was shut down. And then I spent that next month, well, the next three months pursuing my personal training certification. For me it was a okay, I had my time, I threw my pity party, and now I want to do something with this time that I’ve been un I didn’t know I was getting.

So let me do something that I’ve had some kind of interest with and not know where it’s gonna take me.

CP (34:02.7)
Exactly. Exactly. I think that is the key that when you have those moments in life that

Jess (34:09.186)
Wait, hold on, sorry.

Sorry. Ryan.

Jess (34:18.082)
Okay, I think we’re good. There is I he was my boyfriend was connected to our Alexa that’s in the bathroom. So I’m like, what is this noise? Okay, and resume. So sorry.

CP (34:26.512)
Okay, so okay, where would you like to continue? You know, so no what you were saying about pity party rotting in in bed for a month when the whole world was shut down. I think there are often those times in life.

Jess (34:39.136)
I don’t know. Try to pick back up with where let’s try to jog our memory.

CP (34:56.036)
Where you feel like you’re in a big pause moment. And COVID was a big one for the whole world. But before COVID, there was the great financial crisis, 2008, 9, 10, that area of the time period that just was really a lot of people were out of job at that time. The whole world seemed to be really struggling financially. We’re in great, in a great recession.

Jess (35:08.483)
Mm-hmm.

CP (35:24.06)
And during that time I was looking for a job. And I remember really getting very concerned and frustrated. And like you, you went and pursued your physical certification of coaching or your your your what was it, Jess, that you pursued? Personal training. Okay, so personal training and coaching.

Jess (35:47.516)
personal training and then a a year later was coaching.

CP (35:54.083)
And I did the same thing during the Great Recession because there was no movement anywhere. I thought I’ve got to trust try something. And then I went back to graduate school and finished my MBA during that time. So it’s pivoting when you can, that when you, you know, it’s almost like I have a chapter in my book called Stuck. And there’s there was a time when I was sailing and we ran aground.

And that means that your fin of your boat hits rock and you are no longer moving. And there are those times in life when you are completely and utterly stuck. And so there’s a whole toolkit that I offer that when you’re stuck, what can you do? And you are a perfect example of, okay, I can’t go out, I can’t do anything. It’s COVID. I’m completely stuck. But what can I do? And then you went and achieved it.

I did the same thing when, you know, the Great Recession. What can I do? Well, I guess I could go to graduate school. I that wasn’t in the plan, but that’s what I can do. And because I did that, I’m now teaching at Georgia State. Had I not gone to graduate school during that time period, I would not be teaching at Georgia State. So those kind of moments can really impact your future trajectory.

Jess (37:15.724)
Yeah, I mean control is one of the pillars in my system because it’s release what you can’t control. So nothing you can do about it, but you can control what you do do about it, your actions and your reactions, like how you feel and then what you’re gonna do about it.

CP (37:30.638)
Mm, that’s beautiful. Well said.

Jess (37:32.943)
Thanks. All right. So I we’ve talked about how to know when to change directions or stay the course, but sometimes life isn’t so obvious in the the questions that you gave for the listeners, and that’s in your book of it’s not very like yes or no, not black and white. There’s a lot of gray area when when life is happening and you’ve never had to make decisions like this before, and you really just don’t know.

So you stay exactly where you are, even though where you are is not where you want to be. How can someone that is in that gray area, that messy middle ground of do I go left, do I go right? Is it yes? Is it no? How do how do you help them make decisions when that clear answer isn’t right there?

CP (38:21.698)
Yeah. And I would say that’s most of life. We don’t often get hit over the head with a lightning bolt and go, ta-da, this is the next action. It’s almost like we’re in the lifeboat, if you will, navigating the ocean in fog. That’s what it feels like, right? And so when you’re in those foggy moments, there’s a lot that you can do, but one that I want to mention that I think we

Jess (38:24.524)
Yeah.

CP (38:50.986)
Often forget about is our hidden allies. And those hidden allies they are hidden in our lives. We don’t know that they are people who would love to come alongside us and have a cup of coffee, have a conversation, have a Zoom session, and hear their perspective, hear their their

life experiences, get their perspective on our own lives. And a lot of times we just don’t take the intention to do that. But if you can sit down and think about 10 people in your own life that could be your hidden ally, then that would make a huge difference in the way you navigate that fog. And sometimes those hidden allies, once you have coffee with them or a Zoom session or

You know, it doesn’t even have to be an ongoing mentoring session. It can just be a touch point. They can often introduce you to other people that can also become your hidden allies. And I think about rings of friendships that you have your mastermind group, you know, your mentors, but then you have your subject matter experts who can help you on the outside of that ring. And then there’s the influencers beyond that.

Jess (40:04.13)
Mm-hmm.

CP (40:17.006)
And the interesting thing about those rings is they are a living and breathing organism. So your mentor that you have now is not going to be the same mentor you have in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, or even one year. It it waxes and wanes just like the ocean waves. And it’s keeping your eyes open for those masterminds, the subject matter ins experts, the

influencers and the people, those hidden allies that come in and out of your life that can help you navigate that fog.

Jess (40:52.758)
Yeah, I think it’s being more choosy with who those people are, because in the age of social media and chat GPT and AI, it is very easy to want to copy someone else’s blueprint. And you don’t want to use that as like the rule. And I see it I see it all the time. The best analogy I could give is when people will see someone with an amazing body on TikTok and they’re like,

CP (40:58.283)
absolutely.

CP (41:10.601)
Mm.

Jess (41:21.694)
Drop your workout routine, drop what you’re eating. It’s like, okay, she can, but you don’t have the same body. You don’t have the same history. You don’t have the same genetics. You don’t have the same habits. You don’t have the same lifestyle. So even if you copy exactly what this girl is eating and how she’s moving her body, you’re not going to get the same result. And I I saw an influencer say it and I loved the way she said it.

CP (41:41.434)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (41:45.261)
She was she’s like, people are asking me, like, how did I get like drop the routine, drop the routine, because they saw that I had abs. And I’m gonna have two questions for you. One, are you me? Two, are you four feet tall? Cause she was she’s really small. And it’s like, the answer is probably no to both of those. So I can’t give you what I’m doing because you don’t have my body. And I was like, that’s the exact way you should be looking at your life. Like, yes.

Take in what pe the wisdom people are bestowing on you, or if you see how someone is running their life and you really like it and you admire it and you want to replicate it for yourself, don’t expect to follow it step by step. It still needs to be customized to you and realistic to you, rather than trying to duplicate exactly what someone else has already created.

CP (42:34.966)
Exactly. Exactly. I think it’s when you see lives of people that you admire, I think you can take pages from the playbook. Because sometimes, especially in your twenties, I think it we’re genetically built to say, I’m going to forge my own path. And that is really an important part of our survival as human beings.

But I think we have to remember that in the midst of forging our own path, that it’s okay to take pages from the playbook. Not the entire playbook, because it’s not your playbook. I think of your playbook, I’ve never actually thought of this before, but think of your playbook as a three-ring binder. And that three ring binder, you’re going to get a page from here, a page, a page from your mom, a page from a teacher, a page from a friend. And you’re going to make it your

own three ring binder rather than someone else’s because it is your life. Yeah.

Jess (43:41.923)
Yeah. It’s harder to do that in your twenties, I’d say. Like, especially your lower twenties when you just graduate, only because as we were saying, is like you move through the same path the same time as everyone else is like same thing in school, is you had to turn in the exact same assignment with the same answers and any binder check had to be in the exact order in the same binder. So like yes, but also no. Like learn how to create your your own binder.

CP (43:54.244)
Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ridiculous.

CP (44:04.538)
Gosh, that’s hilarious.

Jess (44:10.454)
with pieces that you like. And something that I’ve started to do recently as I’m building up my speaking career side of my business is I have so many people on LinkedIn, so many speakers that’ll be like, I’m speaking here, I’m speaking here, I’m speaking here. And instead of taking that post at face value, I have started messaging them and taking it off of social media and we set up a Zoom call and I go, What are you doing? Are are you getting paid for these things?

CP (44:32.976)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (44:37.696)
what’s actually happening, what did that process look like? And I’m getting the real information because social media is only gonna show you about 1% of what’s actually true. And none the 99%, you’re not gonna know unless you actually ask that person.

CP (44:43.053)
CP (44:53.712)
Jess, I think what you just did is part of that hidden ally conversation that we just had. It’s find they may be an ally of yours. And find having those conversations is really important. And I highly recommend that people do that.

Jess (45:15.244)
Yeah. Obviously if it’s an influencer with millions of followers, maybe don’t do that. But if you’re seeing someone that you relatively know that you have well, ’cause they’re not gonna answer for the most part. They might. I’m speaking more in the realistic sense is like the people that you follow on Instagram that you do have some kind of degree of separation. Maybe not first remain. Maybe you haven’t met them personally, but you’ve got mutuals or something along those lines. It’s like

CP (45:25.23)
Why not? They may. You never know. You never know.

Jess (45:44.591)
Start to nurture those relationships. Start to see, like ask them what’s actually going on, or ask them about their success, ask them about their story because you never know what they’re gonna say. And I’ve learned that a lot of what people are posting online is like for speaking specifically. It’s like, it was unpaid, or they actually paid thousands of dollars to be on that stage. Or it’s like just things that I’m not interested in for myself. I want paid speaking gigs. So I wanna seek out the people that.

CP (45:46.744)
Exactly.

CP (46:06.032)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess (46:13.952)
are able that have built that business up for themselves. I’ve one call booked for later today, one call booked for next week to actually talk to people that are known success stories in this business to be like, hey, what what did you do? And how can I start to again c make my own binder for what I can do.

CP (46:20.602)
Good.

CP (46:27.652)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

CP (46:34.76)
Exactly. And you talked about the binders from school where everybody’s binder had to look the same in the same order. I think at some point in your I think the whole decade of your 20s, you’re opening up those binder clips and going, that page doesn’t necessarily belong to me. Some of them you throw in the trash, some you put on the shelf for later. But there’s there’s a whole sort of culling process of going, what feels like me?

Jess (46:39.396)
Yeah.

Jess (46:46.382)
Yes.

Jess (46:55.691)
Yep.

CP (47:03.671)
And that takes time.

Jess (47:05.58)
And that’s your 20s, is for the first time you’re not under the direct influence of your parents or where you grew up. It’s like there’s so much newness that you are learning so much about yourself, independent of everyone else, that it’s important to carve through those pages so that you do learn. It’s like this isn’t for me and this is. And you might be wrong in that moment. And a year later, you’re like, actually, that was for me and this isn’t. And that’s okay. That’s what.

CP (47:12.13)
huh. Uh-huh.

Jess (47:32.472)
This entire decade is for it’s why I say it’s the most confusing decade, because you’re collecting all this information for the very first time.

CP (47:35.152)
Mm-hmm.

CP (47:41.345)
Right, exactly. But I will say that process matures even more in your 30s. So you think you may have done all your culling in your 20s, and you’re like, okay, I’m 30, I’m ready to, right? And but a lot of people think that, where they’re like, okay, the 20s were in the trenches really hard. I’m going to get better and better as I go in. And they kind of even think that there’s

Jess (47:49.966)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (47:54.005)
No.

CP (48:07.716)
sort of this upward trajectory through your thirties, forties and beyond. And that’s really not the case either. It’s still undulating and still not linear.

Jess (48:16.355)
Did you

Yeah, it’s never going to be. all right, I got two questions. One’s a fill in the blank, one is a question that I wanna start to wrap up this episode with. And that is what is one piece of advice that people give graduates that you disagree with?

CP (48:21.592)
CP (48:38.564)
Yes, I asked my students the same question. And they came up with two answers. And the first answer is follow your passion. And number two is work hard and it all will come out great. You know, you’ll be able to reap, you’ll you’ll find success if you work hard. And so my my students, I actually spent a couple of hours debating both situations with them.

And you talked about the passions earlier, following your passions, and how you talked about Gen Zers going into corporate, but also wanting to start a job. And sometimes you need to experience your passions. You need to cultivate your passions. And then sometimes you need to have those anchors that help you to explore your passions. So it’s kind of like a scale, if you will, and you need both to be able to

To have the connections, the money, the influence to be able to then explore your passions too. So sometimes you have to have a both and. The other is work hard and the money will follow, or work hard and the success will follow. And sometimes you really have to, it is about working hard, but it is also about working smart. And it is also about.

the timing of life. And sometimes, you know, we sometimes in our modern 24-7 world, which started with electricity, which allowed us to work 24-7, and then the internet allowed us to work even more 24-7. And we forget that there are seasons. We forget it because we don’t live in agr an agrarian society anymore. And we forget that there is a time for planting, a time for growing, a time for harvesting.

And a time for that sort of reflection and r recharging, refilling our battery. And so there’s those seasons of life and we forget that. So I think that’s really important to to know. Yes, you work hard, but there are times it’s it is kind of cyclical.

Jess (50:52.78)
Yeah, I think us Gen Z, I’m a cusper. So I think Gen Z kind of learned through watching millennials of like, you worked your butt off and you’ve got nothing to show for it. I don’t wanna do that. Cause that’s clearly not working. Cause that’s the life that millennials were promised. And we have really like debunked that. It’s like, no, that’s not how it goes. I’m gonna set my boundaries. I’m gonna work the hours I’m expected to work and not do more than that. And

CP (51:04.794)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jess (51:20.544)
Older generations call us lazy and that we don’t want it. And it’s like I would also argue, I have a lot of clients that have no interest in climbing any sort of corporate ladder at all. I have some that are like, no, I wanna I wanna keep going. I want the promotion, I want the the next job title, like I want that. But a lot of them don’t. They don’t care to get that. They want a job that is going to fund their life. And that is where the passion comes in is

Follow your passion, but your passion doesn’t always have to be the thing that makes you money. You might need a job to fund your ability to have your passion. Maybe your passion is traveling. You need a job to pay for that. Some people have made traveling their career. So there’s definitely so many different directions you can go with that. But I’d say for any fresh graduate, 20-something, or anyone listening, is if you have a passion.

You need to figure out some way to keep it alive in your life. Might not be 100% of your time. I feel like I am very fortunate to be able to have my passion be something that I do for a living. But I also know a lot of people that they lose that spark. They lose that passion once they start to tie it to, I need to be able to pay my bills. And in order to do that, I have to force myself to do this thing that I used to love. And now it’s I’ve lost the love for it.

CP (52:25.196)
Jess (52:40.408)
So it is it’s a lot of learning that balance, but to your students, it’s follow your passion, but to an extent.

CP (52:48.354)
Yeah. You know, you the word balance that you just used is incredibly important to Gen Z. And it’s incredibly important in life. I I think that’s the question I hear most from the Gen Z students is how do I maintain my balance in my own life and pursue a career? And that’s very, very important to them. I think that’s powerful. I think it’s an a beautiful thing to think about because you’re absolutely right that.

previous generations, the millennials, the Xers, the Boomers, all throughout that balance for progress. And I think balance is a is an important

Jess (53:23.886)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it’s something we this generation definitely prioritizes. And and it’s like the you said, like, okay, the there was different moments of electricity created twenty-four-seven, internet promoted, like encouraged that twenty-four-seven access. And then I’d say the pandemic encouraged it even further because you no longer logged off your computer at work and went home. It’s you brought work home with you. And there you lost that boundary, that divide of when is it, when am I working and when am I resting? And it’s

CP (53:30.232)
Mm-hmm.

CP (53:49.145)
I mean.

Jess (53:54.819)
feel like people are constantly feeling like they have to be on all the time. And and like we’re definitely breaking that down of no, you don’t and you shouldn’t be.

CP (54:02.572)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly.

Jess (54:06.166)
Okay. Last thing is finish the sentence. life after graduation gets easier when

CP (54:18.198)
It gets easier when you don’t expect the shoulds of life.

If you are open

And keep your eyes open for opportunities, for people, for moments, powerful moments in your in life, then it gets a lot easier. But if you are looking only for the shoulds, it can be really tough because life does not have, it does not respect shoulds.

Jess (54:57.742)
Mm-hmm. Yep, the shoulds and the supposed to. Like according to who?

CP (55:01.784)
The shoulds and the supposed to. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Jess (55:06.954)
Yeah, I love that. I tell people like you need to set goals, but don’t be married to the outcome. And I was talking with a client earlier this week where he is like, Well, I want to set this goal, but like maybe that changes. I was like, Well, we’re setting a goal with the information you have right now. And goals can change as new information presents itself. But you need to know what you’re working towards right now.

CP (55:12.861)
CP (55:30.064)
Precisely. Precisely. Yep.

Jess (55:33.4)
All right. Well, thank you, Christian, for coming on how to twenty something. Where can people find you if they wanna buy your book or ask you questions or just get in touch with you?

CP (55:45.27)
Exactly. The book, Jess. I I have it in lots of different formats because people consume information in lots of different formats. So it’s hardback, paperback, digital audio. And I am working now on a guidebook that accompanies it in case you are the type of person who likes to read through the questions and write notes and go through through some some

information that helps to punctuate the message. The thing about the guidebook too that would be perfect for groups, like you talked about your own book club group, groups can go through the guidebook together. So that can all be found at qthelifeboat.com. C-U-E C-U-E thelifeboat dot com. And the books can and audiobooks can be found at any retailer.

And the audiobook can be found at any place where you get your audio. So C U E the Lifeboat.

Jess (56:44.75)
Yes, and that will be linked in the show notes for you guys to access right now. Otherwise, this does conclude another episode of How To 20 Something. So if you liked what you heard, learned something new, or know someone who needs to hear this, then please pass it along. Share it to your story, text it to a friend, give it a five star rating. Just do something that helps me reach all of the 20 somethings, navigating the most confusing decade of their life, because it’s not linear.

As we’ve talked a lot about today. And as always, I can’t wait to be in your headphones again next week with another brand new episode.