Jess (00:02.975)
Welcome back to How to 20 something and I am so excited for this episode because it’s far different than any guest I’ve ever brought on before. Today’s episode is going to be a live coaching session with a dear friend of mine who is struggling to find a new full time job. I’m certain this episode will help anyone listening who is in a similar position where you are currently unemployed and you feel like you’re doing everything right when it comes to your job hunt yet you’re not

getting any job offers or a lot of interviews come in your way. Now, Orion and I have had a few calls off the record. So we have talked about his story a little bit and what he’s tried in the past. And we decided that today’s conversation will be most beneficial if we focus on speaking to your strengths. And if you’re listening and want help feeling confident in the changes and transitions you’re making or wanting to make in your career, then

please head to the show notes and schedule a time to chat with me where it says the words, let’s chat. And we can see if beginning a coaching partnership is the best next thing for you. But back to Orion, I’m going to introduce him and let him explain his current situation. And then we’re going to dive right into coaching. So Orion is a 27 year old small business owner currently living in Charlotte, North Carolina. He graduated from Auburn university in 2019.

And throughout his career, he has had many different roles, ranging from sales, advertising, logistics, procurement, and more. Orion has recently found himself back on the job market and is struggling to find something new no matter how many applications he sends out. Outside of his professional life, he enjoys spending time at the gym, a lake or local brewery. He is joining us today for again, my first live coaching session on this podcast. So I’m so excited to welcome you to the show. Hi, Orion.

Welcome to How to 20 something.

Orien Dalton (01:58.155)
Jess, that was quite the intro. Thanks for having me on. I’m excited to be your guinea pig on this live coaching session for you.

Jess (02:05.742)
I’m excited to have you be my guinea pig. So I’m glad you’re here and that you’re open to doing this first ever live coaching session. I just want to make sure. Okay. I just got a weird notification.

Orien Dalton (02:19.978)
and my background went away.

Jess (02:21.822)
okay. Anyways, restart. I’m glad you’re here and that you’re open to being my guinea pig. But before we dive into the actual coaching part, can you explain to the audience more about your career story and what brought you to your current time of unemployment?

Orien Dalton (02:42.112)
Sure, so I’ll just go ahead and give a general overview of my career so far. So like you said, I graduated from Auburn in 2019 and my first job from graduating college, I was doing door-to-door sales for internet company and there’s a lot of growing pains that come with doing door-to-door sales. It’s not a lot of fun. You can imagine how many times you get door slammed in your face from.

angry mothers whose babies are trying to nap and stuff like that. So after that, I pivoted to a career in logistics and that also had some sales aspects to it. I was doing a lot of cold calling, trying to find businesses that needed help with their shipping. Again, I was kind of learning where I wanted to take my career after graduating somewhere in the business field. And after these two roles, I kind of fixed out sales is not for me.

So then I made a slight pivot into the advertising world, which I really enjoyed. had several different roles within there. And then following that, I spent the last two years working for Food Lion headquarters here in North Carolina as a procurement analyst, basically in charge of all the inventory for the drinks they have in their stores.

And then fast forward to now, the reason I ended up leaving that job is because my girlfriend, Grace, got offered a opportunity to travel nurse in Alaska. So of course we jumped on that. And so I quit my job, went out to Alaska with her for three months, worked at a local brewery out there, and then came back recently and back on the job market again, hoping to get more involved in advertising.

Somewhere along the way in there, I started my own clothing business as well, selling shirts on Etsy. That’s been like a fun side hustle for me that I’ve been working on. And that’s really what made me realize I want to get back into the e-commerce world or digital marketing is working on that clothing business I started. It’s taught me so much and I really am applying right now to jobs that would be something similar to what I’m doing.

Orien Dalton (05:03.986)
I’m just at a larger scale working with multiple clients and know, stuff like

Jess (05:09.846)
Yeah, I think the time in Alaska is so cool. Such a great part of your story. And that’s what we’ll be using to speak to your strengths a little bit. So when it comes to today’s coaching call, this session, where do you feel you’re lacking or what do you feel is not working in your job search that maybe you need a little direction or even a push out of your comfort zone that we can talk about through today?

Orien Dalton (05:37.002)
Yeah, there’s a couple things that I’ve run into. found one assumption I make and I’m always careful about assumptions because you never know. But I feel like on my resume, my most recent quote unquote real job was that procurement job. And that was about five months ago I left there. And I think when I’m applying to these jobs, they see I haven’t really been in work for five months. So they

Maybe just push my resume aside or don’t give it the time of day. And then I think the second thing is when I do get in interviews, I’ve never been very comfortable bragging about myself. And I feel like that’s what an interview is. It’s just, you have to kind of highlight all your strengths and talk about how amazing you are. And that’s never been something I’ve really been comfortable doing. I kind of just like to stay in the background a little bit. I’m a little…

I’m introverted, so I don’t really like to call lot of attention to myself, which isn’t what you’re looking for in interviews, of course.

Jess (06:45.196)
Yeah, I think on one hand, but there’s a position for everyone out there is another part of it is like we’re not an office would not do well with all extroverts and everyone trying to boast about themselves all the time. it’s being able to speak to the introverted side of you in a way that feels good and feels genuine for you that at the same time is putting you in this positive light.

Are you having a tougher time on the interviews or getting to the interviews?

Orien Dalton (07:17.982)
I’d say getting the interviews right now. I think once I do get on them, they’re able to kind of understand my story a little more and give me a chance that they may not have given just looking at my resume. I feel pretty comfortable in interview settings for the most part. I have like standard answers to all the go-to questions that come up. It’s just like I said,

bragging a little bit about myself makes me uncomfortable. And like we’ve talked about before, instead of just answering the question outright, expanding on it more and easing more into how my strengths came into play when answering those questions.

Jess (08:04.366)
Yeah. So let’s start with the getting to the interview first, because I know this is something you and I talked off air with is you’re quick applying on Indeed or doing online applications. And what I’ve explained is that that’s not as beneficial. I think it’s there’s a statistic like 80 % of job acceptances come from networking and from who you know. So if we were to look at that side of the getting to the interview,

What, where do you struggle to get into a face to face interaction with someone ignoring the whole after the fact of what do I talk about then? How do I introduce like, what do I say when meeting new people? How do I ask them for a new job? Ignoring that part, just getting into the networking sphere. What are you doing? Or what are you struggling to be able to do for yourself?

Orien Dalton (09:01.406)
What I’m currently doing is basically I have notifications set up to ping me every day with new job alerts that are coming up in a field I’m interested in. then I will for those just ones do the quick apply. Like you said, although I am doing less and I’m doing more of like on the company site. I’ll usually pivot that and look on the company site to see if they have the application there as well.

and then that usually has more detail. So I’ve been doing more applications that way. I also think right now, what I’m looking for is a little narrow. I’m looking for like something specifically in e-commerce or digital marketing. And also I’m only looking at fully remote light right now in case Grace, my girlfriend and I want to do another travel contract somewhere.

I’m not in the same situation where I have to leave my job again. I can just keep working remotely no matter where we are. So it limits the searches a little bit. I’ve worked, like I said, in an agency before doing something similar. All my connections there have pretty much moved on or I haven’t talked to in three years. although it may, it couldn’t hurt to reach out to people like that.

Again, I’m not very comfortable just reaching out out of the blue, essentially cold calling people just to ask for help. Like I want to feel like I’m putting in the work and I’m not getting like handed a job that I’m actually qualified and deserving of.

Jess (10:45.484)
Yeah, we want both, but a job that feels easy, that it was handed to you, but you are also qualified for. And when I say this person-to-person interaction through networking, that’s not all in person. So yes, you’re narrowed in the, want a fully remote job. And Ori and I off air have talked about his non-negotiables and what he’s looking for in his career, knowing that a fully remote job is part of that.

It also at the same time expands it because you’re not limited to just the Charlotte area. You’re wanting, like you’re able to work on any time zone if you could, if you needed to, anywhere in the US, maybe even somewhere that’s overseas. it’s, so it’s more expansive in that side of things. It’s more narrowed in the part of meeting someone face to face. So a lot of these interactions might be through LinkedIn or through Facebook groups or through

Instagram, social media, whatever it may be, in a way that you’re not cold calling because nobody nobody likes to receive those cold calling messages. And nobody likes giving those messages as business owner to business owner. It’s not fun to be like, Hey, you don’t work with me like no, I that’s that feels grimy and gross. So what do you think would be an appropriate way to reach out to someone that either you know, but haven’t spoken to in say three years?

or that maybe also graduated from Auburn that you can connect with just based off of the same alma mater.

Orien Dalton (12:19.85)
Well, one thing I just recently started doing, I haven’t had any success with it so far just because I just started doing it, but when I was applying to jobs, it would always list the person who is the hiring manager. So whether it’s on LinkedIn or Indeed, you can just find that person, then I’ll add them quickly to my LinkedIn connections and then gives you the option to message them and I’ll just say something short like, hey, I just saw your posting for

digital marketing manager, I just applied to it. I would love to discuss the possibility of working together or something just small like that. So they have a reason I’m connecting with them and you know, it’s not just completely random. And then also I talked about this a little bit offline, but just networking better in Charlotte, like joining the Charlotte Auburn Club.

going to those events, meeting those sort of people. Or I know you have a lot of networking events you host at various places, so popping by to one of those or something like that. It’s a good way to meet more people and never know who’s connected to who and that could always lead to something.

Jess (13:36.428)
Yeah, so let’s start with the messaging of the direct, the hiring manager directly messaging them. I think that is a phenomenal tool to anyone listening. You need to take note of that. How we can improve that message is not so much just telling them like, I applied to this, let me know about job opportunities. It’s you applying to that is letting them know or it’s.

letting them know that you already know about job opportunities for one. And I know like sometimes there’s things that jobs that haven’t been posted yet. And that might be the direction you’re going. I I want to commend you that messaging them in the first place and taking that extra step is fantastic. How we want that message to stand out is also going to play a role so that you get responses from that person. And that comes in the form of making it a little more personal.

not just feeling like you’re copying and pasting your message from one hiring manager to another. So knowing that, how could you rewrite that type of message that comes a little bit more from the heart that touches on that person and their heart, and just a way that you feel is going to make you stand out that is going to vary from hiring manager to hiring manager.

Orien Dalton (14:55.306)
think adding some details from the posting could help there. Looking for the type of person that they really want to hire, is kind of their culture and key responsibilities or key attributes in a person they’re looking for. So for example, earlier today, I applied for a vet company.

pretty much a veterinarian company that sells vet supplies pretty much. And in the message I wrote, you know, it’s what I said, like I was interested in this job. And I also think I included that I love animals and love pets. And I think it would be great to like combine the career aspect of what I’m good at with the digital marketing and then combining that with a career or company that I am invested in like.

something with animals or whatever it is. So I try to find companies that I know I at least have some sort of interest within them and then bringing that up because that is their company, that’s their culture and instead of just saying I’m looking for a paycheck in this job, that I actually am invested in what they do and I care about them as a company and would support them even if I wasn’t working for them.

Jess (16:23.298)
Yes, amazing. That’s so much better than what you said previously. Was that the first one that it was a little different and it did feel more from the heart? Or how did you just not mention that before?

Orien Dalton (16:35.616)
I didn’t mention it before. I’ve done it maybe a couple times, but that just came to mind because I just did that earlier today.

Jess (16:38.282)
I’m sorry.

Jess (16:45.93)
Okay, do you have the actual message on hand that you could read out loud?

Orien Dalton (16:58.174)
I don’t think so. I don’t think she accepted my connection, so I don’t see the message up in here.

Jess (17:11.374)
Okay, would have been nice to read out loud, but that’s okay. So let’s go. I like that you said that it’s like why you want to work there, why your values align with the company values, making it more personal, adding that more personal touch. You didn’t mention that before, but you’re doing that before. Fantastic. You definitely did it with this message that you gave the example of, which is also fantastic when it comes to networking events.

Orien Dalton (17:17.344)
Yeah.

Jess (17:38.134)
I know you can go through me. I know there’s a lot of networking events in Charlotte, go through on Facebook, meet up, there’s a lot of different ways to find out what events are happening and where there’s a lot of pop ups that happen this time of year for reference, we’re recording this in early December. This won’t come out for until beginning of January. But during the holiday time, there are a lot of holiday pop up networking events that happen that are free and it’s to get new members in so that by January you’re starting

and you’re in a new networking group. So there’s all of those opportunities. Finding the networking group is the easy part. Attending an event and going up and conversing with people, especially as an introvert from one introvert to another is the tricky part. So what is something you can do realistically between now and the end of the year that is gonna make you feel a little bit better about your networking skills and your networking calendar?

Orien Dalton (18:38.08)
So what can I do by the end of the year to make me feel better about networking?

Jess (18:41.016)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Orien Dalton (18:48.266)
think just as hard as it is, it’s just doing it. Like I’m introverted. I’m not the one to go up to talk to a stranger without a topic in mind. But I think if something like the Auburn club, at least I have that connection with those people and it’s an easy conversation starter. Or if it’s something like the Run Club at our gym where I’m familiar with some of those faces, I already know some of them.

Just branching out gym friends like through other people or just like dragging grace along somewhere and saying like hey we got to go to this event it’s at a brewery so we’ll grab a beer or something but trying to be like I think it would be very beneficial for me if I just had like a buffer in there somewhere like just grab one friend or someone that I know to go along with me and

They could kind of help introduce me to people. They could kind of be like my go-to person when I need to, like a break from socializing, just kind of go talk to them for a bit. But if there’s no other way, then just do it and put yourself out there. So I just need to, I don’t know, start small, start with going with friends that I know or to people I share connections with and then just kind of branch out from there.

Jess (20:13.314)
Yeah, I think it’s there’s nothing wrong with starting with a networking group where you already know people and a networking group as you even mentioned could be the wrong club that is at our gym on Saturday mornings where you already know some of those faces just to get your feet a little more wet a little more comfortable having these conversations and what I like to tell people is you need to have you need the rule of excuse me, the rule of three.

And you have to go three times before you rule something out. Because you go the first time, you have a lot of anxiety, there’s a lot of nervous energy, you’re not your true self. You go the second time, maybe you see a familiar face, you say, Hey, you were there at the last one, you go a third time, you’ve already seen those familiar faces. And now you get to elaborate on that conversation. And from there, if you’re like, this is not for me, you get to walk away knowing that you tried you gave it three times before you completely ruled it out.

So there’s that. And then there’s the part of when you get there, how do you talk to people? And that’s the part that’s where you want that buffer to come in. But what we want to talk about for the sake of this episode is how to talk about you without feeling conceited in the process, but being able to talk about where you’re currently at in your life, what brought you here and what you’re looking for while also

knowing that the conversation can be about the other person to build that initial relationship, so that it will then come back to you. Because we know that in our 20s, most of our conversations come to a point, especially with a brand new person where the question gets asked, what do you do? So let’s start there. Let’s say you went to a networking event, you walked up to someone that you kind of knew, but you’re not that close with and you’re sparking up a conversation. It’s very casual talk.

How long have you been coming here? like have you benefited? Have you made any good connections? do you know so and so? Any type of small talk and then it comes into the orient. What do you do for a living?

Orien Dalton (22:23.168)
Well, I’ll tell you there is no worse question to be asked, Jess, than that when you don’t have a job. So I always dread that question. But right now for what I’m doing, I either say I’m a small business owner and then I steer them about my clothing business. And that could be sort of a segue into.

the e-commerce world and you know that I sell on Amazon and I’m looking to promote other clients that sell on Amazon and lead that way. Or like right now I’m working part-time at a local brewery as well to make some money so I could I’ll bring that up and say you know I’m working at a brewery you know holding out there until I I’m working part-time there until I can find a full-time position or kind of go that route.

But I mean, it’s not like I’m doing nothing, so I have something to talk about. It’s just I’m not necessarily in the spot that I would like to be at almost 28 years old. So it’s kind of hard to say I’m proud of what I’m doing for work right now because I’m just like a part-time bartender at the moment. And I want to be doing more than that.

Jess (23:46.156)
Yeah, and you’re right that no one likes talking about their career if they’re not in a place where they are proud about where they’re at. So that’s perfectly understandable. How we want to start phrasing these questions is instead of talking almost down to what we’re currently doing in our day to day, we want to talk up to why we’re here. And that’s where bringing in your Alaska story because that is so unique. That is so cool.

it opens up the conversation into what Alaska was like or any travel stories and it just gives people another place to talk to you or another topic conversation to have with you if they don’t want to talk about career anymore. So the example being if someone were to ask you, or in what do do for a living is like, I’m actually in between jobs right now, because I just was living in I was just living in Alaska for

three months and I just moved back and I’m looking for a fully remote e commerce job. Do you know of anyone hiring and just following it up with a question of hey, I have this story I have this really cool thing about me that not everyone gets to say, but then following up with the question of not directly asking them of are you hiring? So do you know of anyone is anyone within your network? So it takes the pressure off of that person.

and doesn’t make them feel as awkward, like they have to give you something, but it gives them that chance to think, like, do I know of anyone that’s even in the e-commerce, fully remote working career field? And from there, you get to carry on with that conversation. So that’s, in a sense, that’s speaking to your strengths because you’re not speaking down to where you’re at right now, you’re speaking up to what you’ve experienced.

and what you’re looking for next. Does that make sense?

Orien Dalton (25:44.306)
Yeah, that makes sense. So I want to turn this on you, Jess, for a second, because I know a little bit of your story. You left Florida to move to Charlotte. So as an introvert like me, what did you do to get to those new networking events? And how did you introduce yourself to new people and strangers and talk about yourself when you didn’t really know anyone moving here?

Jess (26:12.846)
So that’s a great question. Glad you asked. I did a couple of different things. For what I mainly did, the commonality between all the networking groups that I went to by myself had the words young professional somewhere in the name. So it was like young professional or Chamber of Commerce, Charlotte Young Professionals Group. I think there was like a third young professionals something that I can’t think of off the top of my head. There’s

happy hours that the gym I used to go to would throw and there is a CLT social club. So some of those are more curated towards ha like having fun and socializing. But for me, I look at it like I’m networking, I’m trying to meet other people that I don’t currently know. And maybe I can offer them something that’ll better better their life. Maybe they’ll offer me something. Maybe I’m just going to practice my skills and that’s it. But it’s going in with that intention of one, I need a set time of

I have to stay for at least 30 minutes. That’s my rule. I’m going to go in and I’m going to get a drink. Usually it’s water. If it’s at a coffee shop, it’s coffee, but I’m going and I’m walking in with the mission of I know where I’m going when I walk in. Usually there’s name tags that get that are passed around. So I’ll put a name tag on. And from there it’s knowing your body posture and body language and communicating to that. So shoulders back, arms uncrossed.

a smile lightly on your face. And then I let the extroverts do the work from there and they come up to me. And the conversation goes from that point. So I am an introvert. It is rare for me to just go up to someone I don’t know and talk to them. But it’s everything else of the confidence of me walking into that establishment that makes me approachable to the people that are willing to walk up to a stranger and spark up a conversation.

Orien Dalton (28:08.446)
Yeah, so just like presenting yourself that you’re there to meet people and have a conversation and look approachable.

Jess (28:14.978)
Yeah. Yeah, you’re there. You’re friendly. You’re confident. You know you belong there. And you let your energy invite everyone else in as a result.

Jess (28:30.934)
Right? Thank you. Let’s jump ahead a little bit. Still on topic of speaking to your strengths in an interview setting, because you’ve had a couple interviews, right? Like this, you’ve had a handful. What? Where do you feel insecure on those interviews? Or like you can’t brag about yourself, or you don’t know how to word it in a way that feels good about talking about yourself?

Orien Dalton (28:31.552)
Good answer.

Orien Dalton (28:45.48)
I have a couple.

Orien Dalton (29:01.076)
I think I get insecure that there is gaps on my resume where I haven’t necessarily been working nonstop throughout my career since graduation. I also think that one of the roles I have on my, that I worked in the past was for an ad agency and I’m applying to a lot of the same job really right now and

Even though it hasn’t happened yet, I just have it in my head that someone’s going to ask me why I left a role that I’m now applying for or really want to get. And I know we talked a little bit offline for that, but like, I don’t have it. I don’t have really a good answer for that. The honest answer is, I had like a new manager come in that we butt heads with. And then I had, I found this other opportunity.

that paid more and just seemed like a better fit at the time and, you know, able to explore new career options. And then I think, you know, what I just settled on is, you know, as long as I confidently say it, like I just wanted to explore new career options and, you know, this opportunity came up that was kind of local for a well-respected company and I wanted to try it out.

but ultimately I found that I enjoy advertising more. So I want to get back into that and just like reframing it as something like that. Like, for example, if I’m in an interview, I’ll never talk for as long as I’ve been talking, like answering your questions here. Like I kind of just answer the base question and then cut it off. whereas like on here, I’m kind of rambling on and giving examples. and some

Ways that may benefit, sometimes it may not, but I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m talking about anymore.

Jess (31:04.334)
You’re good. So yes, Ori and I have talked about a lot of these things off air on previous calls, but what how you answered it. So when it comes to an interview, one, we don’t want to lie, but we do want to paint ourselves in a positive light and at the same time, not paint anyone else in a negative light. So we don’t want to mention anything negative about a past employment experience that you hated your manager.

it just didn’t work out company culture sucked. I’m just giving examples like whatever it may have been. And like you just wanted more money. We don’t want to say those things. We part the focusing on I wanted to I saw a job opportunity in a different industry and I wanted to try it out. I realized it was not a good fit for me. So I’m coming back because I really did like what I was doing previously. That’s what we want to talk about.

Orien Dalton (31:40.672)
Right.

Jess (31:59.53)
elaborating from there is going to depend on the question that gets asked. Because again, you don’t want to get caught in a point where you’re just rambling and word vomiting onto the interviewer. You want to give an answer that you feel confident about that is speaking positively to you and to everyone else around you that you’ve ever had any past encounter with. And then it’s more of the we want to elaborate when we’re talking about your history like we’re

why you’re looking for a job right now, why there’s a gap in your resume. And that’s the elaborating on I went to Alaska, I did this while I was there. I learned from the locals here and they were also passionate about what they’ve done again, Ori and I have had this conversation off air. And using those experiences and everything you learned from those three months living on the other side of the country in a place not many people get to even visit. That’s what

interviewers want. want that personality. They want to see that light in your eyes that you come to life talking about those things and that’s why you applied for their job at their company.

Orien Dalton (33:09.76)
Yeah, I think what I’ve told people in the past that, you know, the reason I’m unemployed right now is because I went and lived in Alaska for the summer. I guess I’m like expecting a different response, but they’re just kind of like shrug it off like, eh, okay. And I’m like, no, like ask me more. Like I want to tell you more about it. But they’re just like, I don’t know, like business focused and they’re not really like wanting to dive into that, right? Really that much. But I’m like, I…

I don’t regret doing it. I don’t regret that it’s put me in this position where I’m struggling to find a job. And I have no problem talking about that with employers. It’s just, that’s just kind of the end of the conversation on it when it comes up.

Jess (33:59.094)
Yeah, so again, that’s where adding a follow up question, have they ever lived somewhere else for a couple months? Do they ever dream of being like living a nomad life? they like, where is their favorite place that they’ve gone to just like anything that’s going to encourage the conversation a little more. But people love talking about themselves. So if you want someone to ask more about you,

you kind of have to initiate the ask more about them first if they’re not already doing that. Some people will naturally just want to know more, but that’s not everyone. More people want to be like, want them to ask, I want Ori and ask me, ask me a question about myself so I can explain my fun stories and go from there. And then it becomes more of a dialogue of you’re going back and forth. And that’s how a relationship and a connection gets built. If they don’t care that you went to Alaska and that’s something that is so

true and relevant to your story and your life and you absolutely love that experience and they are not giving you the time of day to even give you the floor to talk about it, then they’re just not for you. And that’s okay, too. And you get to move on and find someone who is for you who does want to know about these things who wants to know how you did it, so they could do it to or learn from you in that way, or want to know what you learned while you were out there like that’s

I want to know what you learned when you’re out there. I know we’ve already talked about that stuff, but I’m an example of a person that wants to know more, who wants to know what was life like, how was it, how is it coming back to Charlotte now, but not everyone does that. And knowing that that’s okay.

Orien Dalton (35:43.358)
Yeah, I forgot what I was gonna say.

Jess (35:48.344)
I want to add one thing. Not every conversation you’re going to have is going to feel fulfilling and is going to be amazing and is going to lead to something.

Orien Dalton (36:00.224)
I know that.

Jess (36:00.3)
You can’t go into every conversation expecting an outcome.

Orien Dalton (36:04.532)
Yeah, I’ve learned that.

Jess (36:13.464)
We can talk about what else happens on interviews where you feel a little insecure, you don’t know how to word it properly to speak to your strength or to paint you in a great light that an employer is gonna want you on their team.

Orien Dalton (36:31.272)
Yeah, I don’t really know what else to add to that.

Orien Dalton (36:39.956)
I feel like when I’m interviewing with people, I’m generally good at like kind of reading how it’s going. And then like one of my most recent interviews, I thought the conversation went really well and it ended pretty positive. And then I was kind of unexpectedly hit with a rejection email because I did think it went really well. We talked about some great stuff. We talked about the fact that I did.

start my own business and this company was a startup and I met with the founder who we talked about entrepreneurship a lot and then also me selling on Amazon because that’s what a lot of the work I would be doing with them is. And so it just didn’t really make sense to me why I didn’t get that offer. I feel like I left it very well and that was kind of one that hit harder than most. And so

in situations like that where I feel like I did everything right and then I still didn’t get the job, that’s kind of what’s bothering me the most at the

Jess (37:48.984)
Did you email them again, the person who interviewed you or connected you, whomever, and ask what happened in a way that it wasn’t just like, hey, why didn’t I get the job? Just more of a, I was really looking forward to this company. I thought it really connected. I would love feedback on how I can improve my skillset or my interview abilities because I would like to be notified of the next job opening that you guys have.

So something along those lines, like have you thought about contacting them? Have you contacted them to just get that feedback?

Orien Dalton (38:24.992)
have thought about it and I haven’t done it. At the time I was just kind of frustrated and you know, put my phone down and went and did something else. And then now I feel like enough time has passed where it’s kind of just out of like they probably either forgot about it or you know, they hired someone else or you know, whatever it may be. It’s just kind of too much time has passed to reach out. But I’m…

Yeah, I don’t know. I just thought it yield a different result than it did.

Jess (39:01.708)
Yeah. So this time that has gone by and them hiring someone else or the job not being available anymore. That’s what we like to call stories. And our brains love to make up stories in a way that’s going to fit our narrative. And your narrative is you didn’t get the job. So you’re filling in the blanks of what happened as a result or why you can’t reach out now.

I don’t think there is any inappropriate amount of time to reaching out for feedback. It makes sense that you didn’t right away think when we get rejected, we’re really down on ourselves. And then our story continues of we’re never going to find a job and this is going to be my life forever. And I don’t like what’s happening right now. And I’m not proud of myself. And I’m embarrassed with where I’m at. And like we just we go we just keep going with that negative narrative that we need to change it. So yes,

you can throw yourself a pity party for however long you need to, I’d say not more than pretty much a day, and then make a plan of what do I need to do so that this doesn’t happen again? What can I learn from this? And that’s in the form of asking feedback, that is in the form of reflecting on how your interview skills went. You clearly did that reflection and you feel like the interview went really well. So that’s where it comes to reaching out. mean, like I…

was really looking forward to this job opportunity, I would love to know what I could be doing differently or what you’re looking for. So I can better match my skill set to your company needs. And just showing that willingness to learn and that openness to receiving feedback that is going to make you stand out to employers and to that person that is in charge of the hiring process. They’re going to potentially think of you first, when they’re like, we have a job opening again. Where’s that guy?

Orien Dalton (41:00.296)
Yeah, I feel like, you know, when I, when that does happen, I tend to like, it puts me in the mindset to be more proactive with communicating to future employers. So, you know, like I said, you know, reaching out to the person as I imply, as I apply to a job, doing that and kind of just setting myself up to get a better chance to get the job beforehand.

as opposed to reaching out after I got the rejection and going back to someone that’s already not going to hire me. And then, like you said with the stories, I tell myself even more stories of like, I wouldn’t have liked that job anyway, or it wasn’t a good fit because of this or whatever. Then I’m like, all right, yeah, I didn’t even want that job anyway. And then I just forget about that one and try and move and focus on to a new one.

Jess (42:00.034)
Yeah, like in the Incredibles, Edna Mode talks about, don’t look back, it distracts from the now. But you can’t learn if you don’t take the time to look back.

And if I say that as maybe you’re never going to get that job, you’re already got the rejection. Maybe they’re never ever going to hire you again. We don’t know. But what they could tell you is what other future employers in the same field are looking for. And then you can cater your resume to those needs or add another certification under your belt or listen to certain podcasts that you can talk about that you know that that industry is looking for.

so that the next interview does become a yes.

Orien Dalton (42:48.256)
Yeah, I feel like I know all of these things. It’s just, I tell myself I don’t need to necessarily do all those things.

Jess (42:59.118)
Would it be helpful to make a checklist of like post job application checklist of things you need to do and post interview and then post, well, we’re gonna say rejection because if it’s acceptance, obviously you know what you’re doing next, but say you get rejected again, what you need to do. And that includes self-care practices of I need to go for a walk after or.

Grace and I need to go get dinner after at our favorite place, or I need to go to the gym and lift or just whatever it may be is like having the things that you when you’re thinking in a neutral headspace, like right now, if you’re not, you’re neither here nor there, you’re just kind of like, yes, I’m on this call with Jess right now. This is where we are is much easier to come up with the things you need to do versus when it’s the actual time to go do those things. So having that running checklist, if you were to think just right now,

post applying for a job. You’ve already done the research of the company. You really taken your time answering the questions on the application and making it thoughtful and personal. You hit submit. What are some checklist items you can do after that?

Orien Dalton (44:15.552)
Yeah, I would say that it’s beneficial. Right now, I of just have a checklist in my head of everything just to do during the day. So whether that be apply for two hours and then go to the gym and then go to work or whatever it is, like I just have that running, but I don’t have it as detailed as that. like, if this happens, then do that. I think in a lot of ways,

Orien Dalton (44:47.146)
kind of like I’m already doing that without thinking about it. Like I’ll send follow up emails and thank you emails and stuff like that. but then going that extra step in saying, well, when you get the results, you know, go for a walk or, you know, go out to dinner or something like that, just to put yourself in the right mind space. that would be the more beneficial part of it because.

especially when I think I did everything right and then still get the no, those are the ones that, you know, affect harder than the, you know, rejections before even getting interview ones.

Jess (45:29.55)
Yeah, I feel that I get that with potential clients. I earlier today got off a call with a potential client and I talked to my coach about it. I’m like, she’s so perfect for me. Like she has to work with me. She has to and she’s gonna let me know tomorrow. Hopefully it is a yes, but if it’s a no, it’s like that hurts because I’m like, I know 120,000%. I can help you.

Orien Dalton (45:51.136)
video.

Jess (45:57.9)
like with everything, everything you need help with. I am the coach for you. And if it doesn’t turn into a coaching partnership, it is a lot more defeating. And it’s that same mentality. Like you find a job, you nail the interview, you like the company, everything is good. Everything is great. You get the no and it hurts and it sucks and it’s allowed to suck and you’re allowed to be like, this sucks right now. But it’s what you do after that. That is important.

Orien Dalton (46:17.856)
and

Jess (46:27.052)
And that’s the checklist of taking care of yourself. is the remembering to reach out to people. It’s giving yourself a timeline of how long do I get to be in my gray cloud? And then what is the first thing I need to do to help myself out?

Orien Dalton (46:43.424)
Yeah, like you can’t control what people do, but you can control how you react to them. Whatever that quote is. Yeah.

Jess (46:49.964)
Yep. Yes, I say you can only control your own actions and reactions and that’s it. Literally nothing else. Don’t even try because you can’t. So you can control how you apply for jobs. You can control how you show up to an interview. You can control what you do after the interview. You can control how that employer sees you or how they respond to what you are doing.

And it’s, it’s tough when that happens, because you want to be able to you want to be like, how did they not see how great I was or how much of a perfect fit I was for their company? Like it’s their loss. But at the same time, knowing that they know their company better than you do. So you might think it’s a good fit. But at the end of the day, they they do know what is going to be a good at the same like most of time, it could be a personality fit, if they’re going to be a good personality fit for that company, the person hiring

does know more than the person interviewing. So it’s not focusing on that, but focusing on how can you put your best foot forward? How can you show up fully prepared and ready to speak to your strengths and ready to talk about what you’re hoping for and what you can bring to the table and the value you add by stepping into the room is what it’s, that’s all you can do. And you have to be able to release every other part after that.

Orien Dalton (48:20.18)
Yeah, it’s just like not knowing what, like not seeing what they’re saying, like not seeing why they’re giving the no and me seeing everything go right. That’s the part that eats at me. But then again, I’m not doing anything like the reaching out after the fact to like see what caused it. I’m kind of just like, like you said, making up stories and then that doesn’t really get anywhere.

Jess (48:50.094)
Yeah. So how about an action step that you can do today? It’s kind of the end of the day, but I would still even say today so they could see it tomorrow is send that email or some kind of reach out to them to get that feedback that you’re looking for. Not the why didn’t I get the job? But speaking more to you are really looking forward to this position. You felt you were aligned with your values, the company’s values. You would love any feedback.

it to what you can improve on to get the next job and to be let known of any future job opportunities or job openings that are going to come there that way from that company.

And then the second action step is create a to do list, a checklist of what you need to do with any future potential rejection you may get. And that might not even be with this go around of jobs. Maybe the next job you interview for you get hired. That would be fantastic. But we’re in our twenties and you’re probably going to have more job interviews in your future. So knowing how to take care of yourself then as well, knowing that that checklist could change, but create one now.

Orien Dalton (49:33.63)
Yeah.

Jess (50:02.872)
Create one today that you can put into place for the next rejection, you’re probably going to receive because it’s inevitable. Rejection is part of life.

Orien Dalton (50:14.4)
Unfortunately,

Jess (50:15.916)
Yeah, it’s the crappy part of life, but yes. But do think you could do those two action steps?

Orien Dalton (50:18.301)
Yeah.

Orien Dalton (50:24.222)
Yeah, I could do those. Yeah.

Jess (50:26.932)
Okay. All right, Orianne, how we’re going to close out this coaching session is how I like to close out all coaching sessions and that is with an aha or takeaway from today’s conversation. So what is something you are walking away with based on what we talked about?

Orien Dalton (50:46.715)
for a second.

Orien Dalton (50:59.424)
Thank you.

Orien Dalton (51:09.824)
I’m going to say the aha moment was something you helped me discover that I was already doing, but just how beneficial it can be to send that message to, say, the hiring manager, but then also include something more specific instead of just a generic message that’s a copy and paste. So including something more specific about the company or the position or the person.

to make me stand out because I’m sure a lot of people who are applying to those jobs aren’t even messaging that person. Just getting something creative and unique that stands out to the person hiring that helped me get a better chance of getting an interview with.

Jess (51:58.382)
Yeah. Good. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. But we’ll say this does conclude another episode of how to 20 something if you’re listening and you liked what you heard, or you know someone who needs to hear this, then please pass this episode along. Just give me a five star rating, post on social media, tag me at coach.jessdiamond when you do the whole shebang. And as always, I can’t wait to be in your headphones again next week with another brand new episode.