Jess Diamond (00:03.457)

Welcome back to another episode of How to 20 something where today I’ve brought on a guest after taking a little guest hiatus for a few weeks. But when I came across Rebecca and the work that she does, I was like, wow, I’d love to do an episode on whether or not the person you are dating is the person for you or if you need to walk away. Or as the title would suggest, are they the one or is it time to run? Because I think we can all nod our heads in agreement that we’ve been in a relationship or two and have questioned whether or not

this is the person we’re supposed to be with forever. Your soulmate, if you will. And I don’t know if I believe in soulmates. I know my boyfriend and I agree with his reasoning, which is that there might not be one singular person, but rather it’s who you get along with, who you’re attracted to, and who you choose to be with, who you actively choose to show up for every single day. And that could be anyone. It’s so romantic of him to say that, I know. But in all seriousness,

Whether you believe in soulmates or not, I do believe that you should know what you’re looking for in a relationship that deems it as good for you. Not based on what your best friend’s standards or beliefs are. It’s yours because it’s your life and you’re the one that will have to come home to this relationship day after day after day. So I figured why not bring on a licensed marriage and family therapist to help you find your way in your relationship.

Jess Diamond (01:37.206)
Rebecca Williams is a licensed marriage and family therapist in California. She owns and runs Inland Empire Couples Counseling, where she trains the best couples therapists in her area. They offer online couples therapy and couples therapy retreats at their offices in Southern California. Rebecca also runs Q Mental Health, an organization specializing in queer mental health care. She’s a mom to two awesome kids and the best dog ever. She works part-time doing business coaching for other therapists and is a host on the Not What I Thought podcast.

where she and her friends break down how hard life is for women in today’s world and give permission to let go of what’s supposed to be so you can create a life you really love. Hi, Rebecca, and welcome to How to 20 something.

Rebecca Williams (02:18.841)
Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Jess Diamond (02:21.186)
Yes, I’m so glad you’re here. And I kind of want to start this conversation with picking off of something that I said before I introduced you. that’s picking a relationship you’ll feel good about coming home to. How can someone be selfish in their relationship, but in more of a relational way?

Rebecca Williams (02:41.263)
Yes. OK, I love this question because the thing is at the end of the day, only you know whether something is working for you. I think so many of us, especially if we’ve been raised and socialized as women, we have this expectation that we should please the other person. And certainly there is a part of that, right? Which is why my idea here is to be selfish, but in a relational way, because it’s not just about you.

Right. But I can’t be only concerned about my partner and never considering, am I happy? Am I getting my needs met? Like that, it just doesn’t work. because at the end of the day, I am the only person that lives in my body and lives my life and has my experience. So I have to be the authority on whether I’m happy here, on whether my needs are being met, on whether I like the person that I’m becoming in this relationship. So.

I have to first and foremost be looking at is this working for me? Do I like who I am when I am with this person? Do I like, cause the thing is we change based on the people that we spend time with. So any partner that you have, you’re going to learn things from them. There may be bad habits that you pick up. Like you are going to change because of your time spent with this person. So you got to stop and look, do I like who I am becoming and the ways that I’m shifting and changing? And

I cannot outsource that to anybody else. So I have to first and foremost know, are things working for me? So that’s the selfish part. But I do it in a relational way that it’s not all about me. Is it working for me? And am I showing up to be a good partner? And when my partner asks me for changes or to show up for them or to connect, am I available to that? We’re doing all of these things.

in a way that is pro relationship, but at the end of the day, like I said, you have to only you can know what you like.

Jess Diamond (04:41.742)
Yeah, yeah, I’ve also heard people say if someone said, Oh, you’re just like your partner, would you take that as a compliment or as an insult? So it’s not even like how you’re showing up, but it’s how they’re showing up. And if you were to trade places, would you like who you are as them?

Rebecca Williams (04:58.351)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, the same thing, this, I didn’t even think we were gonna go here this quickly in the relationship, but like, or in the conversation, but the same thing is true for sexual relationships, right? In our connection, I have to be selfish in a relational way because my partner does not know what’s feeling great in my body, what’s turning me on and off, right? There may be some external cues for that, but at the end of the day, it’s on me to make sure that I am enjoying.

our sexual connection and our sexual encounter. And I can’t just lay here and do nothing or hope that my partner picks up the hints or be frustrated that my partner’s not meeting my needs when I haven’t said what I need. Or sometimes it’s also I haven’t spent enough time with myself to really know what I need to know what I like. And that’s true for the sexual aspect of a relationship as well as just relationship in general.

I can’t just sit here and expect someone else to do it for me and figure it out for me. Like I have to be self-reflective. I have to be the one who asks those questions. Do I like this? Am I happy here? Would I want to stay in this relationship if it never changed?

Jess Diamond (06:09.996)
Yeah, yeah, my ex, whenever I talk about my relationship with my ex, people are like, why were you with him for so long? And I don’t regret the relationship because it taught me a lot about myself from a sexual way. I’m sorry, mom, my mom listens to this podcast, but from a sexual way as well as from an emotional way. like, I was able to understand what I’m worthy of and what I’m looking for in relationship as well as what I’m not looking for. So I want to…

very blatantly ask you, how do you know if someone is the one or if it’s time to run? Are there any immediate signs or patterns that we can look out for within say like those first three to six months of dating?

Rebecca Williams (06:52.453)
I’m going to say, well, OK, in the first three to six months of dating, you may see some red flag things that are like, I’m being disrespected here. I’m having to kind of shrink or hide some of my best parts of my personality. They are insulting me or we have some kind of a conflict and

I walk away feeling like I did all the apologizing and the other person didn’t take any accountability for what they did. Like those are for sure red flag kind of things, but I want to, give people permission to actually not know in the first three to six months of a relationship, if the person is the one, because there’s this thing that happens, that we call new relationship energy. When you’re in a new relationship with someone and there’s all, all the good feelings and, you like cannot help, but like,

see only the positive things and our brains get all excited and we like imagine these like wonderful futures with this person and that’s part of new relationship energy. That is just part of the experience of being in those early months of a relationship and so if you’re three months in, six months in or you’re looking back at an old relationship and you’re like how could I not see this? Don’t be so hard on yourself because nobody sees things that early on in a relationship, right? So maybe we’re looking at

have we been together for a year or longer, we could start asking that question in a more serious way. Is this person the one for me or is it time to run? Because honestly, sometimes you don’t know in the super early stages. And I wanted to speak to that as well, this like looking back on a relationship we’re not in and going, why did I stay so long? And partly it is you have the benefit of hindsight to see, these patterns that didn’t work for me were there from the beginning.

But when you were only six months in, it was probably too soon to know if this is a pattern that could change or not. And when we are being good partners and we’re invested in the relationship, if something’s not working, the responsible thing to do is to talk to our partner about it, that we try to work on it. And if we find months later that that pattern

Rebecca Williams (09:09.669)
is intractable and it doesn’t change and our person you know won’t change this thing about them or whatever that’s the point where we say okay now I gotta go not at the first instance of the of an issue because if everybody ran at the first instance of any kind of issue in a relationship no one would ever be in a long-term relationship ever right so like have so much compassion for yourself if you’re looking back on a relationship and going why did I stay so long

Well, part of why you stayed is because like you’re a good person who wanted to do what they could to see if these patterns could change. And you didn’t know that they couldn’t until you had given it a try.

Jess Diamond (09:49.964)
Yeah, what would you say to someone who is seeing a lot of issues within the first six months, but they’re still hold onto that promise of no, they’ll do better. And maybe your partner says like, want to change, like I want to try to do better, but there’s still a lot of butting heads at that point. And I, cause I personally feel like that’s.

I don’t want to say it’s early on, everyone’s relationship is different, but it feels like you’re still in the honeymoon phase at that point. So if you’re butting heads so much, why are you trying to work with this friction that is constantly there so early on?

Rebecca Williams (10:25.081)
Mm-hmm. So sorry, will you ask what the question is again? I was following like, yes, that happens.

Jess Diamond (10:31.598)
Yeah, so I was thinking like, what would you, I guess like, what would you say to that person is, as a therapist, as a couple therapists, that you’re seeing like, hey, you, your issues started within the first month and things have carried on and like now we’re in, maybe we’re in month six, maybe we’re in month 10, maybe we’re a year and half in and like, there’s still a lot of friction. how do you, you can’t blatantly, I don’t want to say blatantly, you can’t just tell someone like, hey, get out of this relationship, it’s not working.

And especially if that you’re both trying to fight for it, but the fight is still creating friction. How, as a therapist, do you navigate that with that couple?

Rebecca Williams (11:12.419)
think what really matters for people is, well I’m gonna say two things. One is for you to almost be like an anthropologist or a scientist in a way that you’re gathering data, right? I said this to my person and they said they would do this or they said they were working on it and now I’m looking for evidence. Not in a…

again, a totally selfish not like in a relational way, but we cannot just believe people’s words. We have to actually see the action, right? So if we have a rocky beginning and I talking about it with my partner and they say they want to work on it and we still have rocky moments, but I can see I can point to places where I know my partner is taking responsibility for their part and they’re working on their thing. That I say, okay, keep going. Keep doing the work. That’s awesome, right?

But if we keep having the same fight and your partner keeps saying they’re going to work on it and then you don’t see any evidence that they are working on it and things also aren’t changing, we need to pay attention to how they’re acting and not what they’re saying because they could promise you for forever. And the words are cheap, right? So that’s that’s one thing is to really be watching and be willing to be somewhat objective because your feelings are all tied up in there. Maybe you really want it to work. Maybe you really love this person. And so you’re willing to sort of

fill in the gaps in the absence of evidence. But they said they wanted to, right? And so we want to watch that, okay? And the other thing is to really get to know what your part is in the perpetuation of this negative pattern or cycle. And that’s not to say that it’s all your fault. Newsflash, it’s also not all your partner’s fault. There is some way that the two of you create this thing together.

So you can ask for your partner to fix their side, and then you also have to be willing to fix your side. And do this independently of whether your partner does their work or not. Because if your partner doesn’t do their work and you decide, I’m leaving this relationship, you will be better that you figured out what your negative patterns are and you fixed yourself. Because if you don’t, you will move on to the next relationship and you’ll recreate a version of the same thing.

Rebecca Williams (13:34.873)
because you didn’t do your work to figure out how you contribute to whatever that negative cycle or pattern is. And then you find yourself continually with the same type of person because not because you attract bad folks. I mean, maybe you do, I don’t know, but more likely than not, you haven’t learned yourself enough to know, how do I keep getting myself into this situation? How am I?

Maybe it’s, don’t know how to repair. I don’t know how to back down. Maybe I don’t know how to apologize. Maybe it’s not that. And I don’t know how to ask for what I need. So I’m constantly upset that I’m not getting it, but I’m not communicating clearly. Any of those things will follow you from one relationship to the next. And the other thing I wanted to say about trying to fix a relationship early, or if you see problems early, is to really pay attention to what you do after conflict.

The fact that you have conflict is neutral. Every relationship has some. If you’ve been with someone for a year or more and you don’t have conflict, I would…

15 years of doing couples therapy, I will tell you, you do have conflict, someone is just not talking about it and that’s a problem. Okay, but so the fact that you have conflict is not a problem at all. It matters how do we handle our conflict? Are we mean to each other? Are we cruel? Are we disrespectful in our conflict? That matters. And also it matters what do we do after? And in the

Jess Diamond (14:50.059)
Yes.

Rebecca Williams (15:11.311)
couples therapy world we call this repair. How do we repair after a conflict? And if you can’t repair or you can’t accept when your partner is offering you a repair, that’s going to be a problem long term. So from where I’m sitting as a couples therapist, I’m more interested in not like do you have conflict and what’s it about, but like how do you do it?

And then what happens afterwards? Are we able to come back together? And come back together is partly, like I said, and accepting apologies, but it’s also changed behavior.

Jess Diamond (15:45.72)
Can you, I have so many questions within this. I talk to 20 somethings, I have friends, I’m very fortunate to be in a very communicative, understanding, reciprocal relationship for myself, but I also know my past relationship was not that. So I have a lot of my personal experiences as well as conversations that I have with friends and with clients. I want, my biggest question I have for you right now based on what you just said is, can you break down

Rebecca Williams (15:47.368)
Please, yes, let’s go.

Jess Diamond (16:14.508)
maybe types of conflict. I know like there’s different degrees of I would say my boyfriend and I on the way. It doesn’t feel like we have conflict, but it’s more so we’re very communicative when something’s bothering us. And like that is conflict, but conflict feels that word alone feels so much bigger. Like we’re, we’re not screaming at each other. No one’s upset. Nobody’s crying. It’s we’re having a conversation and then we put in actions behind it and it

Rebecca Williams (16:33.519)
less.

Jess Diamond (16:44.458)
it works for us, but I know that there’s different degrees of conflict. So I would love to hear your mind and your perspective on what different conflict could look like in different relationships.

Rebecca Williams (16:56.591)
Yeah, thank you for that. So I think I’m shorthanding using the word conflict to mean any kind of area of difference. That is a much more accurate way probably to say what we really are talking about is areas of difference. Because you and your partner aren’t experiencing conflict in the terms of like we’re arguing all the time. Because you can navigate areas of difference between the two of you without having an argument.

Jess Diamond (17:12.814)
You

Rebecca Williams (17:24.909)
And that is how you are managing quote unquote conflict, right? Like we have areas of difference, we have different preferences. Sometimes that is something as simple as like someone is an early bird and another one is a night owl. That is a difference that has to be navigated in the relationship. But sometimes we have differences around how much time we think we should spend together versus apart. And that could be something that is just a conversation that we’re talking about.

Jess Diamond (17:28.119)
Yes.

Rebecca Williams (17:52.151)
Or it could be a thing that is like a big argument where we’re shouting at each other and tears and whatever because I feel offended that you don’t want to spend the time with me, whatever. It’s all kind of the same how we’re navigating areas of difference. Yeah. And that could be, like I said, some things you just talk about. Sometimes we don’t know how to have open conversations. And so people will get passive aggressive.

So it’s not that the thing goes away, they don’t know how to talk about it. But feelings don’t just go away. If we try to bury them alive, they will come out sideways somewhere else. So then you get a little comment about like, you did that again. Or you’ll start having a conversation about something like doing the dishes and all of sudden you’re talking about some other thing because that other thing has been buried for a while. And some people manage conflict by

Jess Diamond (18:34.369)
Yup.

Rebecca Williams (18:51.343)
triangulating other people. So instead of talking to each other, we’re both talking to a best friend or I’m talking to my mom and you’re talking to your brother. And now all these people are involved in helping us navigate this difference because it’s so uncomfortable or threatening for us to actually talk to each other. And I will talk. So everybody has differences. Every single couple, every relationship configuration, there will be difference because no two individuals are the same.

And there’s maybe one category of conflict or difference that we just live with.

And maybe it’s not that big of a deal, Maybe one person sort of likes doing the dishes and really doesn’t mind doing it and that they just always do the dishes, it’s not a big deal. And you could have another partnership where neither of them like it. And that is an area of a lot more conflict, right? And then we have some things that we have. So there’s some areas of difference that we just accept and live with.

and hardly notice. There’s some that maybe we’re having ongoing conversations about that we navigate, it’s your turn to do the laundry, or you’re right, I did spend a lot of time with my friends. I can say no to this thing to be with you, that type of thing. We have conversation about it, and it’s fine. And then every couple will have a handful, at least a handful of issues where the work of navigating those areas of difference

requires quite a bit more effort. And these are the topics where maybe we’re more prone to have the intense conversations. We’re more prone to have the big arguments or whatever. And again, to the theme, is this person the one or should you run? If you have some of those, that’s fine. If you find that those types of arguments or disagreements seem to overshadow everything else, that’s something to pay attention to. If you have

Rebecca Williams (20:54.053)
lot of those types of disagreements that are really big and heavy such that you are always talking about big and heavy things that is like a thing to pay attention to.

Rebecca Williams (21:11.127)
like there’s something else that I was going to say in there but it’s it’s disappeared you can ask we’ll come back if it comes back around.

Jess Diamond (21:18.933)
Yeah, think it’s, I like how you defined conflict as just disagreements, like you are not aligned on something and you’re coming from two completely different backgrounds and histories and experiences and relationships that it is going to come up, but you have to decide for yourself too, when is it enough? When are you, when are you done having the same conversation or the same fight over and over again and nothing is being resolved?

Because it does take two and maybe that’s when you go seek out a couple therapists for that extra help. But I think like I know from me on the outside looking into some of my friends relationships that it’s like, hey, I don’t think this is a healthy relationship for you. And I do think you should run, but I can’t say that you haven’t asked my opinion on it. You just used me as a place to vent. And I also, I know a personal trap that I fall into.

Which is going back to why I asked you if there’s any signs you could look for in the first three to six months of dating. And you did bring it up where there might be those hidden things. There’s, they’re like, oh, they’re, they call me these names or they make these kinds of comments. I don’t love this, but you’re so infatuated in this person that you brush it off. And something I am very guilty of doing, and I don’t know how to get around this, is I will hold someone to expectations they’ve already set.

And when they fall short is when I start to get very unhappy. So for my ex, for example, the first six months of dating him, I, it was great. He was very involved. He wanted to take me out all the time. He wanted to be around. wasn’t in a love bombing way. was very, it felt like a very healthy relationship, but I also know there would be comments like I’m shaped like a door or if I gained five.

he would break up with me or he would play connect the dots with my acne and just like little things that I was like this isn’t great to my self-esteem but I would overlook them and I would put my little love goggles on and just like I I don’t see that like that’s not that big of a deal it’s funny when he says that and then as time went on I was like hey wait no that’s actually not cool

Jess Diamond (23:31.958)
and now you stopped taking me on dates and now you’ve stopped making time for me, but you were doing all those things at the beginning. So now the more negative patterns are more apparent because all of that other stuff that I did like that was going on has also faded away. So I don’t even know what I’m asking you, but I know that there’s a lot of people that will put on those rose colored glasses and not be able to see through them. Maybe it’s after the six months after that honeymoon phase.

wears off, they still have the rose tinted glasses on and they’re blinded to the mistreatment that everyone else can see. So how do you help those people kind of see through that or start to tear away without being like, hey, this guy’s an asshole or this girl’s an asshole, you need to leave or they need to change or whatever it may be. Because it’s hard with relationships is you always want that other person to change and to do something different. And you never really focus on

what you need to change. She’s just like, just see everything they’re doing wrong. Or the opposite is like, they’re so amazing. And everyone else is like, no, they’re doing everything wrong for you. So how, how does someone get over their rose colored glasses or holding people to certain expectations that they were upholding within the first, the beginning stages of that relationship?

Rebecca Williams (24:51.641)
Yeah, so I have two ideas here. One is I just want to give everybody permission that like it’s OK to learn from your experiences because sometimes you don’t know how important something is to you or not until you’ve lived through the thing. Right, because somebody else may have heard those same comments. I think those are terrible comments, by the way. I’m so sorry that happened to Jess. But somebody else might have thought that was fun banter and it really didn’t get under their skin and bother them.

Jess Diamond (25:12.908)
you

Rebecca Williams (25:21.411)
I know, right? But you know from living through it, I don’t want to be treated that way by partner. And so especially when we’re in our 20s and we’re like so much learning who we are and what we want. And a lot of that learning has to come through experience. So it’s OK. Like, don’t be so hard on yourself, anybody. If you have a couple of bad relationships, but you learn from them. Fantastic. And part of that learning is now knowing

how I’m going to do things differently. So when I’m with a new partner and they maybe say something about my appearance that seems joking, the first time I let it go because I was in this, I’m in love phase. And now because I have that painful experience, my nervous system, my body has learned I don’t like that. I am less likely to overlook it when it happens again, because this is how our brains learn, right? We’ll go, whoop, that was a painful thing. Pay attention.

And then I get to decide, I going to do something about it or not? So I’m with a new partner now, and they say they make a comment about my appearance. I get to say, you you probably were just joking, but I really don’t appreciate that kind of humor. And then, like I was saying before, now you’re a scientist and you observe.

How does the person respond to that feedback I gave? If they’re good, for me, they probably would be like, thanks for telling me. I didn’t mean anything by it. I’m so glad to know that about you. OK, cool. Green flag that. Absolutely. If I tell them and they go, it’s not a big deal. Come on. Don’t be so sensitive. like, here’s a first instance of me communicating a preference and my partner who

is in the new relationship energy stage with me who also should have rose-colored glasses on is blowing through that. That does not look good for the future, right? So there’s part of that that is just learning, right? And I forgot what my second thing was that I was going to say. It’s how do we not, the question originally was how do we not deal with the rose-colored glasses part.

Jess Diamond (27:22.478)
Thank

Jess Diamond (27:30.616)
So it’s like, how do you see through the rose-colored glasses? then also, do you, like what happens when someone’s not upholding the expectations they originally set?

Rebecca Williams (27:39.553)
Thank you that reminded me of the second part. Okay, so the second part of my answer to this question is I Want you to have permission to really honor what you want So like it is a good thing to want to be in a relationship with someone who loves you It is a good thing to want to be happy and stable and safe

in your relationship. It’s also a great thing if what you want is to have a relationship that’s like fun and spicy and passionate and we do adventurous things together. Like whatever you want in your relationship when you really know yourself, right? Like that is good and honor that. And then it’s a different question whether the person who is in front of you right now wants the same thing as you or whether they’re the right person to build that.

And I think that can help with the rose colored glasses thing a little bit because sometimes it can get really confusing in our mind. They’re like, but I really, I want all this beautiful relationship stuff. And so I guess I can deal with a couple of insults here and there because we’ve sort of conflated the thing that we want with the person who’s in front of us. But if we can separate that a little bit, it’s like, no, I absolutely, I still want this and I get to still want this and I get to have it and expect it.

the fun, beautiful relationship that I want and then I’m evaluating is this person that I’m dating, like, are they the person that’s going to get me to that relationship? Right? Yeah.

Jess Diamond (29:09.634)
Yeah, yeah, I think it’s a lot of people will build their future together with someone. So they’re holding on to this vision of what something is supposed to be or how it’s going to look like that they’re forgetting the person that’s in front of them right then and there. It’s like they’re blind to the present moment because they’re so far into the future of marriage, of moving in together, of having kids, of getting a dog, of doing all of these relationship milestone moments that you’ve talked about.

Rebecca Williams (29:34.98)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Diamond (29:39.042)
you’ve created the vision together for, and you don’t realize that that person is not the person that’s gonna hold that vision with you anymore.

Rebecca Williams (29:49.445)
And it’s so easy to blow past that like, my partner says they don’t want kids, but I’m sure that’ll change later because I really want them. It’s like, oh no, this is the place where we stop and go, I am super clear that I want kids and then I need to separate. Do you want the thing? Like, do you want that with me or not? Right. Do you want to live a suburban or urban or rural? Like these are huge things that you can’t just compromise on, but like, you know, cause you can’t just have like half a kid. One gets a kid and the other one doesn’t, right? But usually that doesn’t work. So.

Jess Diamond (30:17.069)
Yeah.

Rebecca Williams (30:19.001)
We need to really be honoring, again, like selfish in a relational way. Like, what is it that I really want? And then it’s a different question if whether you’re the right person to take me there or whether we have shared goals.

Jess Diamond (30:33.486)
Yeah, yeah, I think the shared goals is so important. My boyfriend asked me on our second date if I wanted kids, because he wants kids. So he asked me right away, like, there’s no point in taking this any further if you don’t want kids. And then the other side is that I was talking with one of my girlfriends recently who’s seeing a guy and they’ve been seeing each other for a couple months now. I was like, you official? And she’s like, well, I want I’m at the point in my life where I want to be dating seriously and I want to date to marry. And I

want to eventually move to like New York City or some big city and he says that he eventually wants to move to a small town. So that is such a big goal that is not aligned but they are very much enjoying each other’s company now. So it doesn’t, to that point is that it doesn’t necessarily have to be someone has all of these massive red flags and it’s a super toxic relationship. They can be great but your long-term goals are not the same so they’re not the person for you.

Rebecca Williams (31:31.895)
Or you get to decide, are we aligned in enough other areas, and I love this person enough, that I’m willing to move rural with them and not resent them for it. And I think that’s really important because we often go in with, well, I could convince them to move to the city with me. And that’s sort of the wrong way to think about it, right? We want to think about, I make the sacrifice for them? Would I move rural for them? And if it’s like,

Jess Diamond (31:41.612)
and not resent them for it.

Rebecca Williams (32:00.133)
no then that’s your answer right there. And it doesn’t mean you have to run because they’re terrible person. It also could be we’re in a great relationship for now and let’s enjoy this for now. We could be we could have a couple really great years together until our lives take us to a point where we need to move different places. Okay you could do that if that’s what you know that you’re getting into right? But then that part about the compromise is it’s a group you have a lot of good potential if I’m willing to move rural for you.

Jess Diamond (32:19.79)
you

Rebecca Williams (32:28.993)
and you’re willing to move to the city for me. okay, we can work with that in a whole different way than if we have someone who all of the accommodating and all of the compromising is going in one direction.

Jess Diamond (32:43.182)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So on the topics I brought up that they don’t have to be toxic, but I want to, so I want to kind of veer into that topic to some extent where I have friends that I was very fortunate that this did not happen with me, but they’ve had been in toxic relationships and they finally get into a healthy one and it’s boring or it’s, it scares them because of how boring and healthy it is that they go back to toxic.

Rebecca Williams (33:05.043)
Yep.

Jess Diamond (33:11.734)
later it’s like no that’s what they’re chasing they’re chasing that the highs and the lows but i think it deals with your comfort and what you know is good for you versus where like you are in a sense trauma is pulling you towards and under that topic is the difference between knowing if something is comfortable so like let’s say it is a healthy relationship everything’s good but it’s not the relationship for you there’s not necessarily a reason to break up but you know

deep down, you’re just wondering, are you comfortable in it or is this what you want in a relationship? So how do you know the difference between those two is my first question. And I know I’m piling up questions for you. And the second one is what happens when you find yourself in that pattern of chasing the toxicity that you don’t realize you’re chasing?

Rebecca Williams (33:50.693)
Okay, so.

Rebecca Williams (34:01.113)
Yeah, OK. So the first question is, how do you differentiate if you’re just here out of comfort or if this is really where you want to be?

Rebecca Williams (34:16.547)
I realize that I am in my forties and I am a, a couple of therapists for the last 15 years. So I just have a very different perspective on relationships. I think than your typical 20 something audience. And it’s, I want to normalize that every long-term relationship has at least some phases where it’s not super exciting. We’re just sort of comfortable in going through the motions. So,

The fact that you would have a period like that doesn’t necessarily mean that the relationship is good or bad or has long term potential or doesn’t, right? Sometimes that just happens. I would say if you are early in your relationship and you’re already having the feeling of like, eh, I was kind of hanging out here because nothing else is going on. Like I would definitely pay attention to that. If you’re in a place where you’ve been together for a while, maybe you, you know,

you’ve lived together for a while, you have kids together, you have pets together, whatever, and you’re going through a place where it just feels sort of comfortable, I would say maybe we pay attention to that differently. We get into some therapy, we accept it for what it is, whatever. But that’s the early stage of your relationship, like pay attention. And then to like, or how do know if it’s really the one for me? It again comes back to like really knowing yourself well. What are the circumstances under which I thrive?

What are the goals that I have for my life? Even letting myself sit and dream. Let me forget about my current partner for a moment. And I’m going to dream. What do I want out of a relationship? How would I create a life for myself? Go ahead, have the dream. Write it down if you want to, whatever. And then we can come back and go, is that dream possible with the person that I’m currently with? And you might find out that, it is. We just need to invest in our relationship a little more. Or maybe a

we’ve become complacent and I need to have some conversations with my partner about like, hey, I have ideas about how we want to grow. Let me share that with you. Let me see if you want the same things, right? There’s lots of communication that could happen in there. And you also might find that like we’ve grown differently. We used to want the same things and now it’s been two or three or five years and we kind of don’t anymore. And there are really lovely ways that people can decide to separate that doesn’t have to be full of

Rebecca Williams (36:38.209)
you know, pain and animosity and, you know, hard feelings or whatever. Like there’s a way that we can consciously uncouple or decouple and be, you know, really kind to each other because we’re growing in different ways. So think there’s space for that as well. But then you asked, what about if you find yourself going back to stuff that is toxic or really just not good for you? I want to make it

Jess Diamond (37:02.441)
Really the sense of comfort and healthiness is boring or scares you. So as a result, you go back to the toxicity.

Rebecca Williams (37:08.739)
Yes, yes to the toxic, yeah. I want to make a distinction here in that some people might want a relationship that’s really passionate, that has lots of kind of highs and lows and we do lots of adventurous things together and the fact that you thrive on or kind of get off on the excitement of adventurous stuff doesn’t necessarily mean that your relationship is toxic as long as you and your partner are both like

it works for you, right? And that could be like physically adventurous things. It could also be like maybe we’re a couple who opens our relationship and we have sexual play with other partners and that’s part of what keeps things fun and exciting. Like if that works for you both then great do it, right? But I think what you’re actually asking about is when it’s not functional. When

I’ve been in this thing that really doesn’t work for me, but I keep going back to that pattern because it’s what feels familiar and a relationship that on paper is what I want, I freak out about because it feels weird. Yes. In the kindest way possible, get yourself into some trauma therapy. Really, because there is some part about…

Jess Diamond (38:17.794)
Yeah.

Rebecca Williams (38:33.354)
likely younger versions of you, younger stuff that is not healed yet that keeps drawing you back to this unfinished business. It’s not even that you like it, it’s just like some unfinished business and we can do that, we can help you through that in a more healthy way in therapy than if you keep trying to work it out with partners who hurt you. And I’ll share a story a friend told me actually just this last weekend. My friend was talking about how

They kept being attracted to partners who were emotionally unavailable and realized at some point like, it’s like my mom. I’m continually attracted to people who are emotionally unavailable like my mom. And it’s finding the unfinished business. If I can get this person who is emotionally unavailable to then like connect and want to be with me, then maybe it like fixes the stuff I didn’t get in my childhood, right? It’s not entirely logical, but that’s sort of the unconscious thinking in there.

And my friend said that they realized it’s because they didn’t believe they were worthy of love. Internalized that really young from an emotionally unavailable mother, I’m not worthy of love. And so being in a relationship with someone who was available didn’t feel right because they didn’t feel like they were worthy of it. And so they would break up with those people and continue pursuing the person who’s emotionally unavailable.

And my friend said then when they realized that’s what was happening, then we could get into therapy and do some work around, I worthy of love? And healing that part and then that changed everything. Because now the partner who is good on paper feels good because it’s congruent internally. I no longer feel like I have to reject it because I’m unworthy.

Jess Diamond (40:24.866)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rebecca Williams (40:26.201)
which is a lot to take in from a podcast, but I like, really, I think that’s the answer. It’s like, you’re gonna…

Jess Diamond (40:28.878)
Thank

Yeah, I mean, I’ve had to do a lot of my own work on my self worth. And I think a lot of that comes with growing up and with different experiences, but I’m in therapy, like I have a coach. It also takes work with working with someone else to help you accept, not even accept, mean, accept seems so weird, like accept that about yourself, that you are worthy of love, that everyone is worthy of love. And I remember telling my boyfriend in early stages of dating that as I, hey, like,

One of the things I’m attracted to the most about him is his level of communication. And I’m like, thank God, I’m not chasing something toxic. But I also know that for him, he gravitates towards being a fixer. So he goes for like the quote unquote broken people that he can then fix because that’s what or he wants to try to fix. And he said he had a really hard time with me at the beginning of our relationship because I did not come in as someone who’s broken.

Rebecca Williams (41:08.847)
Guys!

Jess Diamond (41:30.434)
So his brain freaked out and was like, what do I do? They don’t need me. And it’s like, no, he’s in therapy, great green flag for him. And he was in therapy well before he met me. We love his therapist. His therapist also has given me the green flag for him. So was like, great. But it’s like doing that work and being able to talk about it with someone else is recognizing these patterns. like, why do I want to run from this person? There’s not an actual real reason behind it.

Rebecca Williams (41:37.081)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Williams (41:46.767)
Okay.

Jess Diamond (41:58.059)
It’s me, it’s my own brain, it’s my own level of comfort and dealing with this unfamiliarity that is scaring me. And it’s just because it’s unfamiliar doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s actually usually the opposite. It’s usually really good for you. And you need to pause and like stand strong in your shoes and play it out. Like be there, fight for, fight against your own brain in this instance. If you’re realizing like there’s not anything inherently wrong with this other person that

is these deep, deep maroon, like red flags that are waving back and forth. It’s like, hey, it’s actually might be good for you to stay, even if it feels boring or even if it feels scary.

Rebecca Williams (42:31.629)
Yeah.

Rebecca Williams (42:43.333)
And that comes back to what we were talking about before with like, if you don’t do your own work in even in the messy relationships, right? If you don’t do your own work to figure out how do I keep getting myself in this pattern? And maybe the pattern is I don’t feel worthy of love or the pattern is I have to fix other people or I won’t be lovable, right? Whatever that pattern is, like if I haven’t done my work and I think, it’s all this other person’s fault and I break up with them.

That same thing is going to resurface for me in a relationship in the future because that’s what I bring. That’s the unfinished business that I bring to the relationship. And there never, there is no such thing as our work is done. And we’ve finished all the unfinished business, right? So there’s no ever like arriving at a perfect, perfect, a perfected or perfectionistic kind of state. So there also is no perfect partner. It’s just looking at like,

How do we manage the things? Are we each willing to look at our side? Am I willing to do to look at how I contribute to things, both problems and also to like solutions or to getting what I want? Like am I, do I communicate clearly about what I want? And am I resentful if I have to communicate something? Because some people are. If I tell you what I want and then you give it to me, it somehow doesn’t count because I had to ask for it. I want you to just know.

You know what, that’s like fairy tales. That is cool, but that’s the movies and not real life. Like the most loving.

Jess Diamond (44:13.248)
Yeah, even though we do all want that to happen, we would love for that to happen.

Rebecca Williams (44:17.893)
But like honestly the most loving a partner can be is when you say I need this and they go okay and they give it to you like that’s it.

Jess Diamond (44:29.73)
Yeah. What if a partner feels like no matter what they do, it’s never enough?

Rebecca Williams (44:37.317)
Oh, that is a great question. And there are two sides to that. Because if my partner is telling me that, doesn’t matter what I do, I’m never good enough for you. OK, I need to look at, do I have unrealistic expectations of my partner? That’s the first part of it. It’s like, is there something in me that I maybe keep them emotionally at a distance by never giving them approval?

Or maybe I kind of like that they’re always like, how can I please you? How can I please you? Right? Like there could be a part of that that’s in me or maybe I don’t know how to forgive or you whatever part of it could be me. It also could be my partner or both. It could be that they don’t know how to, they don’t have it. They have a fundamental sense of unworthiness and they don’t feel like everything is ever good enough within themselves and they’re putting that on me.

Jess Diamond (45:33.518)
Hmm. I’ve also looked at it because I had a friend that was dealing with this with her boyfriend. And I talked to her about it as like sometimes like your 100 % is not the same level as their 100 % of they are giving you their 100%, but it does not match up. And at that point, it’s a compatibility issue. So when

Rebecca Williams (45:39.269)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Diamond (45:57.972)
when do you walk away from that? Because that’s something that I, you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like that’s something that’s not gonna change.

Rebecca Williams (46:05.905)
Yeah, if it is just a compatibility issue like my 100 % and your 100 % don’t look the same, we have to, I would take that seriously but also we have to look at it on a whole because there could be some areas where I go, you know what, I’m just gonna live with that. I want to think of a great example maybe.

Rebecca Williams (46:36.803)
Maybe I have a partner who’s an introvert and I’m kind of an extrovert and we want to do social things and I have an expectation that my partner is going to come with me to all the things. And my partner is like, this is as much as I can manage. This is as social as I get. I get to decide how important is it to me to have a partner who goes to all the same social activities. And if for me that’s a non-negotiable, then this is just a compatibility issue and we got to walk away.

But if my partner brings enough other good things to the table and I know, you know what? I could kind of wrap my head around this. I will be grateful that my partner comes to some things with me and I’m going to be learned to be okay that I go to some social events alone or I have friendships outside of my partner. As long as my partner can support that, right? That my introverted partner doesn’t expect me to stay in as much as they want to stay in.

Jess Diamond (47:33.282)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Williams (47:35.397)
If that’s a thing that we can negotiate, then it doesn’t have to be a deal breaker for the relationship. But on any one of those things, like only you get to decide how important this one particular issue is for you and your relationship. Because the other thing is, I was going to say this earlier, that, you know, looking in at a friend’s relationship and we go, oh, this really isn’t good for you. Sometimes we’re putting ourselves into their situation like I wouldn’t put up with that. That wouldn’t work for me.

But no relationship is perfect and without areas of difference. And if my friend is actually, this is a trade-off they’re willing to make and they’re fine with it, I don’t get to put that on them and say your relationship is bad. It’s like, I wouldn’t want that. But maybe my friend is fine with it and they’re happy. I don’t know, right?

Jess Diamond (48:22.646)
I just had to explain this to someone is like, just because it’s not your level of standards in your relationship does not mean it’s not her level of standards in her relationship. It is different. then it goes back to what I said at the beginning of episode is like, this is the person that they’re coming home to every single day, not you. And I would say another example that I thought of as you were explaining your story of like introvert vs extrovert is my cousin is the perfect example of this of him and his wife.

Rebecca Williams (48:38.191)
to. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Williams (48:45.509)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Diamond (48:50.336)
He loves to travel and he’ll go on these adventures. He’ll go biking, do all these things. And his wife never wanted to do any of this, but never stops him from going to do it himself. So he goes by himself and he’s so fine with it. So it is, like, is that something I would want in my relationship? I mean, I don’t think so. I think I would want to go on these trips together, but understanding, like, if there’s a trip that he, my boyfriend’s going to go take with his friends, like, hey, no spouse is allowed.

Rebecca Williams (49:01.381)
stop him.

Jess Diamond (49:19.384)
Cool, go do it, I’m not gonna stop you. understanding, is really important to understand what you want in your relationship, outside of what everyone else is doing within their relationship.

Rebecca Williams (49:20.099)
Yeah.

Rebecca Williams (49:30.629)
And I feel like it’s important to mention that there are some things that should be like hard rules and hard nos for any relationship. I would say any kind of physical abuse that’s happening in the relationship, that’s not a thing of like, well, they seem to be fine with it. Like, that goes either direction. If you are a male and you have a female partner who

gets violent with you in arguments, just because you’re a man doesn’t mean that you like have to take it. Or just because you don’t hit back or they don’t leave bruises doesn’t mean that that’s okay. Like any kind of violence in the relationship, if there’s any kind of coercive control where you’re like, they’re keeping you isolated from friends and family, where you don’t have access to any of the money, where you’re, you know, really can’t do anything right, kind of a…

situation you’re being belittled all the time like emotional, sexual, verbal, physical abuse, those are things that would be a kind of a hard thing that we’re not going to put in this category of like well you know whatever to each their own like no I think there are some things that are clearly wrong and if that’s happening in your relationship and you need support to get out like there’s lots of resources in your area that we could connect you with to help.

Jess Diamond (50:47.414)
Yeah, yeah. And I think, unfortunately, think emotional abuse is probably one of the most hidden. don’t, physical is very obvious. Sexuality is also, I wouldn’t say very obvious, but it’s relatively obvious. And emotional is so underlying that you’re going to be beaten down bad before you realize. speaking from personal experience, like you’re, you don’t know until you know. And it could be a long time and a lot of things you have to build back up within yourself to find that.

and that self-worth that goes back to that, like to get out of that situation. What do you think most 20-somethings get wrong about healthy relationships or what a healthy relationship looks like on the opposite side of spectrum of abuse?

Rebecca Williams (51:33.775)
I think what most 20-somethings get wrong, and we do have 20-something couples that come into our practice, so this is not just, you know, like it’s from experience seeing people.

Rebecca Williams (51:47.125)
I see kind of two ends of the spectrum. One is that they are surprised, they get wrong that it should be easy. That if this is the right person for me, then like we shouldn’t ever have any areas of difference or conflict that we have to manage. like the fact that we have some disagreements or whatever means that there’s a problem, right? Like they, so that’s one thing. And then I also see folks way on the other end of the spectrum.

where they don’t know that they can walk away. I feel like we’ve made an investment. Maybe they’ve been together or they’re each other’s first relationship and they’re so afraid of the pain of a breakup that they kind of stay longer than is good for either one of them and can be kind of stuck in this swirling like we’re not solving problems, neither of us is happy, but we don’t know how to end and leave. And you know, if you need help with that, like

a good couples therapist can help you. Also know that we can withstand, you can withstand some heartbreak and it’s going to be okay. The only thing I would add to that is like if you have kids, it’s sort of a different picture. It doesn’t mean that have to stay with somebody forever, but the question of should you stay together, should you walk away is sort of different when there’s children involved. It’s not published yet, but I’ve actually written a book for parents to help you decide should I stay together or should I leave when there’s kids involved.

So if anybody’s listening to this and wants a copy of that, you just reach out to me and I will get you a digital copy before it’s printed, okay? But, because that’s a whole separate question that we’ve been talking about today. How can you do that well? Yeah.

Jess Diamond (53:18.894)
Thank

Jess Diamond (53:23.212)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I’d say on average, 20-somethings are, a majority of them are not having kids yet.

Rebecca Williams (53:29.103)
A majority of them are not, and I see lots of folks in our practice who are here and are in their 20s and have kids already. yeah. I think not your typical audience, not your typical audience. Yeah.

Jess Diamond (53:35.564)
Yes, yes, I’m not ruling it out. Yes, yes. I feel like if you have kids, you’re kind of in that full blown adulthood. You’re still navigating things, of course, but I know for me personally, that is one of my requirements of who I work with is you cannot have kids, simply because I don’t have kids. So I can’t relate to the hardships that come with having kids and having to balance that as an additional factor in your life.

Rebecca Williams (54:05.539)
I respect that about you, Jess, in knowing that there’s a limitation of what I can coach people on and where my competence is. Yeah, I respect that.

Jess Diamond (54:14.09)
Yeah, not going to go outside of my scope or my knowledge and a lot of what I coach on is from my own personal experience as well. Like it’s what makes me relatable. It’s like, you’re going to hop on a call. You tell me you have like five kids and you’re 28 years old. I’m like, yeah, you’re in your twenties, but I can’t, I was out of my wheelhouse. So one last question for you before we wrap things up. And that is if someone listening today is questioning their relationship.

Rebecca Williams (54:33.024)
Right?

Jess Diamond (54:43.87)
What’s one question they should ask themselves before deciding to stay or to leave?

Rebecca Williams (54:56.559)
Would I be happy in this relationship if nothing ever changed? Do I want to be in this relationship if it stays as it is right now?

Jess Diamond (55:09.164)
I’ve heard that one and I like that. It’s a great way to end it. Amazing. Thank you so much, Rebecca, for coming on How to 20-something. Where can people find you, follow you, get in touch about your book or work with you?

Rebecca Williams (55:24.549)
I am on Instagram at Rebecca Relationship Expert. You can find my podcast is not what I thought and you can find me also on my website iecouplescounseling.com. That’s where you can you can reach out to me get me by email there through the contact form and also if anybody is in California and wants to work with one of the therapists that I’ve trained we could do that there or you can come.

do an intensive retreat weekend with us and we host those at our offices here. Find out all that info on the website.

Jess Diamond (55:59.318)
Yes. And all of her links are in the show notes for you guys to access right this instance, which means that this does conclude another episode of how to 20 something. So if you liked what you heard, if you learn something new, or if you know someone who doubts their relationship, maybe you’re doubting your relationship, then share this episode, send it to a friend, post your story, tag me when you do just please help me reach all the 20 somethings in the world navigating the most confusing decade of their lives.

And as always, I can’t wait to be in your headphones again next week with another brand new episode.