Jess Diamond (00:02.894)
Welcome back to another episode of How to 20-Something, where today I’ve brought on a guest to help you stop overthinking what you say, mainly when you’re at work, but also just in life in general. This could be in a meeting with a bunch of other people or in a one-on-one conversation. And if you’re like any of the other 20-Somethings I know, then you fall into the category of saying too much and…

going off on tangents and babbling so a 15 minute conversation turns into an hour long one, or you’re the other end of the spectrum and just go completely mute. Regardless of the category you fall under, you’re someone who walks away overthinking everything you said or didn’t say, and it’s time for you to learn how to have confidence in your voice when you do speak, which is what Dana is here to help you with over the course of today’s episode.

So allow me to introduce her. Dana Gowin is a speaker, workshop facilitator, improviser, public speaking coach, distinguished host master, and host of the Improvably Speaking podcast, which focuses on improv, public speaking, communication, and creativity. Her mission is to make all meetings, presentations, workshops, whether online or in person, fun and engaging for all attendees. Her business, Improvably Speaking, helps speakers find the fun

F-U-N in all caps in public speaking and embrace the improvised moments on stage and off stage. She just recently moved to Charlotte, North Carolina from the West Coast with her husband and 18 month old daughter. And she has been busy exploring her new home city. Hi Dana and welcome to How to 20 something.

Dayna Gowan (01:46.168)
Hi Jess, thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be a part of this podcast. Full disclosure, I am 37. So I guess I’m not a 20 something, but I still feel like a 20 something. Sometimes with the uncertainty of life, I feel like that’s a big thing in your 20s and 20 somethings. I mean, life is uncertain at any age. And some days I feel like I have it more together and some days I’m like.

whatever, we’re just going with the flow. So I’m excited to be here and I love this resource that you have for 20-somethings and all ages really.

Jess Diamond (02:24.11)
Yeah, yeah, my mom listens to this. So I was like, when I tell people, like, it’s 20 something, but like, it’s really adulting in general. And also nice to know that the like feeling of not having your shit together spans across all decades. It’s not, it doesn’t just end once you turn 30, it’s forever.

Dayna Gowan (02:26.253)
Yes!

Dayna Gowan (02:39.918)
Listen, I tell people that life is improv, right? Like you might not consider yourself an improviser because you might not be on stage technically performing improv scenes, but we are all improvisers. We are all making it up as we go along, right? Nobody has the script for life. And if you do have the script for life, would you want to see it, right? That’s like the existential question. Would you look at your script?

for life ahead of time? I like to say I wouldn’t, but I don’t know. That’s hard question.

Jess Diamond (03:14.382)
I don’t know, like curiosity killed the cat kind of thing. I don’t… This is true, because then you’re not… Like you already know what’s to come. And I also feel like that in the end, like that would change your trajectory because you’re like, oh, well, no, I know that’s happening. So I don’t have to try as hard. It’s like, well, no, that was going to happen because you were going to try so hard.

Dayna Gowan (03:16.896)
Right? then it makes it less fun.

Dayna Gowan (03:23.521)
Exactly.

Dayna Gowan (03:30.432)
Exactly.

Dayna Gowan (03:34.478)
It’s like the time travel thing, like don’t change anything in the past because then it messes up the future, right? So yeah, lots of big questions here. What ifs? That could be a whole sci-fi movie thing. Somebody write that script and then give me some credit and I’m good with that.

Jess Diamond (03:37.155)
Hm.

Jess Diamond (03:42.446)
Thank

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well, I don’t know if you know this about me, but I took an improv class last year, last January, actually, and it was a six week long course. And it wasn’t, I didn’t do it to help with public speaking. I actually did it just as another creative outlet that for me going into it had nothing to do with business in terms of creating something that’s centered around my business. But being a public speaker, like I know that it had that additional benefit. It was like a

two birds one stone kind of situation. It was a blast. I thought it was so much fun. It was just hard to fit into my schedule and keep doing. Otherwise I totally would have kept going with it. But I wanna know why did you get into improv? And then also when did you start and do you wish you started earlier?

Dayna Gowan (04:26.956)
Mm-hmm.

Dayna Gowan (04:39.756)
love this question, kind of the journey-esque question, right? So I originally got into improv because I wanted my husband and I to do it together. My husband’s really funny. Like when I met him, I was like, he’s so funny. Like, and that’s very attractive to me, right? And was like, he’s so funny. And we have a very interesting love story. I won’t get into it, but we met our freshman year of college and basically dated our freshman year.

So I have no advice on dating, by the way, in your 20s, because we were college sweethearts, I guess. I don’t know. Interesting journey there. That’ll be an episode for another time. But he was super funny. we were living in Columbia, South Carolina at the time. We went to University of South Carolina, graduated, and then stayed there and worked there for a long time. we were listening to

Improv podcast, Comedy Bang Bang is a super fun improv podcast still out there. And I was like, it would be so fun to do an improv class together. That would be great. Like my husband Steven’s really funny and I had just kind of conquered my fear of public speaking. And I was, I had a good foundation of public speaking. Like I was more willing to put myself out there. and just quick side note, you do not have to conquer your fear of public speaking to do improv. For me, I had a good foundation that I wanted.

to do it, but you can also not have that foundation and just do improv. A lot of people do improv for the public speaking benefit. anyway, I was more open to it. So I was like looking up classes in Columbia, like, do they have any classes? And it was 2016, 2017. They did not. At least nothing I could find online. And it was kind of a bummer. And so then my husband got a job in Los Angeles.

like big dream job worth the move. was super great. And you would think like right when we moved, I would be like, improv, like let’s do it. But it really took me, I think a good six months or so to find an improv class. takes a while to get your bearings. So I’ll give myself some grace, but we were there for a little bit and I went to a free two hour, like intro to improv workshop at the neighborhood studio or theater.

Dayna Gowan (07:04.342)
and it was so much fun, so much fun. Like I felt like a kid again. We were laughing. These were all strangers around me and yet we were having a blast. We all stayed after, exchanged numbers, Instagrams, as people do, right? And then none of us ever contacted each other ever again, right? Like, let’s sign up for a class to be other. That’ll be so much fun. And that never happened. But when you have that much connection, you’re so excited and…

You feel like you know people after you get to connect and play on that level. And so I had so much fun and that was February 2019, I want to say. And again, I loved it. And you think I’m going to jump right in right away. It took a while to commit. As you said, you know, with scheduling and a lot of times improv classes are at night on weekdays or weekends. And it’s, it can be a tough commitment. And this was pre-kids like before we had our, our baby. And it was still kind of a commitment.

But we ended up signing up for a class January 2020, in-person class, three miles away. Yes, great timing, like the best time to get into improv. We finished our 101 class, did our show. We had so much fun, signed up for Improv 201. And then we got two classes in, then, womp, womp, womp. We know what happens, COVID happened. Everything went online with everything, work, life, and improv. So we just kept going.

Jess Diamond (08:05.979)
Great timing.

Dayna Gowan (08:30.178)
We kept going with online classes and reflecting back on it now, it was such a great outlet to have. And this is again, very privileged outlook because we didn’t have kids and I know how hard it was on parents, working parents with kids in school at the time. And it was just so crazy. we didn’t have that. We had like one or two nights a week of just like,

a fun improv class, and we were all newbies, so the scenes probably weren’t the most amazing, but it was the chance to be creative and just kind of forget about what’s going on and the uncertain times. And while I was in those classes, I started to see parallels, right? And like what you do in improv, like the skills that you’re using to build a scene together, there’s so many skills, right? There’s listening, there’s collaboration,

There’s world building, there’s saying yes and, there’s being creative, there’s letting go of judgment, embracing mistakes, kind of just taking a risk and going for it, like using a silly voice that you’ve never tried before and it fails terribly and yet that’s the fun, funny part. And so I found myself like in kind of a risk taking, like embracing mistakes kind of mode of life that I’ve never been in. I am a perfectionist.

I’m an only child that was super judged by grades and sports and all the things, right? And so to have this outlet and space where you could just kind of show up as yourself, make mistakes and actually have that be the funny thing, it was, I mean, I have chills right now talking about it, cause it was really special. And at the same time, know, we’re online, everything’s online. We’re doing all these zoom meetings that…

all these Zoom webinars that are just so boring, so, so boring, like makes you wanna bash your head into a wall. And again, I know just, I’ve heard some of your story, like you were furloughed. So maybe you’re like, I wish I could sit in those boring Zoom meetings, but from my experience, I was like, this is terrible. This is awful. And I wanted people to have those same skills, like.

Dayna Gowan (10:53.016)
being able to just like chat instead of being so tied to the slides and like being so like word for word instead of looking at the chat and what people were saying and asking questions. so I was kind of in flux too in my career. I’ve listened to some of your episodes and I get that feeling of just like feeling like you want and you could do more. That’s what I had.

Jess Diamond (11:21.773)
Mm-hmm.

Dayna Gowan (11:22.39)
I went to school, I got my masters. I had a six month job that was not a good fit, similar to, I think, your story. And I got the dream job. After that, I got the job that I went to school for. And about two years into that job, I was like, is this it? Like, this is what I’m supposed to do the rest of my life?

Jess Diamond (11:44.792)
was me one week into my job. So yeah, I would like to say I’m a little ahead of the game with that. It’s like one weekend, I was like, hold on. Yeah, I can’t keep doing this.

Dayna Gowan (11:46.862)
Okay, yeah, so it took me…

Dayna Gowan (11:55.246)
Yeah, it’s like you’re sold a bill of goods. You’re like, wait, I did what I was supposed to do. I went to school, I got the degrees. I got the good grades and the job. then you’re like, wait, I’m supposed to do this for the next 30 years? Again, I want to bash my head into the wall and do many other things that are not good ideas. I was kind of.

Jess Diamond (12:11.79)
Mm-hmm.

Dayna Gowan (12:20.544)
In flux, was working with business coaches and like just trying to be like, what can I do that’s different? And I was working with a coach and she’s like, well, what do you like? I said, well, I like public speaking. I had conquered my fear public speaking through Toastmasters. really enjoyed Toastmasters. Like I liked leading meetings. I liked talking, being an MC, clearly like I’m talking like for 10 minutes here. Like it’s pretty obvious. I like talking and

And then I said, I like improv. Like I’ve been taking these improv classes. I like public speaking. I like improv. And she’s like, well, can you do both? And I said, I don’t know. And it turns out, yes, there’s a whole world of applied improv out there. There’s many people doing this work and it’s been around for a long, long time. But I think post COVID, a lot of people are branching out, taking risks and taking chances on their business.

The market is not saturated. is tons of work to go around. I’m not worried about that. I was like, that was the idea. was like, well, I don’t know. Let’s explore. And then a friend introduced me to Applied Improv. And I got into that world. There’s a community called Applied Improv Network that hosts OpenSpace, which is like a place where you can learn how to do exercises correctly.

may not correctly, but in a great way that like makes improv look good. Because I think maybe you haven’t done improv at your work or wherever, but you’ve probably done some version of forced fun as a team building event and that never goes very well. And it’s usually a one and done thing and people are kind of arms folded, they’re miserable the whole time. And then they go tell their friends like, I had to do this forced fun activity. And so if it,

If I make improv look good, like improv looks good for all the other speakers. So it’s a great like sharing community, again, like not competitive at all. And I started my business in, what’s the July, 2022. And it was a side hustle for about three years. And then when we moved from Charlotte or from Los Angeles to Charlotte, that’s when I went full time ish in my business. Like I had the foundation laid.

Dayna Gowan (14:44.268)
It was kind of ready to go. And now it’s like, now we’re in the planting seeds phase in Charlotte, like meeting people and networking. my short story, short version of the story, Toastmasters helped me conquer my fear of public speaking. Improv made me a more dynamic speaker. And between those two, conquering my fear of public speaking, learning public speaking skills, actually liking public speaking,

And then finding improv has been totally life-changing. And I used to like be like, I don’t know if that, is that exaggerating? Like maybe I should say it’s game-changing. No, no, no, life-changing. Like I am a different person. I am a more confident person across the board, work, life, personal, all the things because of these skills. And I’ll stop there. I could go on, I’ll stop there.

Jess Diamond (15:38.156)
Yeah. Yeah. I know, I had a blast when I took my improv classes. I was like almost peeing my pants every single time. Like every break we had, I’m like, let me go empty my bladder so I don’t pee my pants. Because you’re laughing the whole time. But here’s the thing where I think maybe like the listeners, even myself, it kind of gets a little crossed of or blurred lines of you’re saying like improv is

Dayna Gowan (15:48.886)
Right?

Dayna Gowan (15:53.614)
You

Jess Diamond (16:07.456)
It is very much so this non-judgmental space that you can fail at and learn from those mistakes and fail publicly and make a fool of yourself and it’s all accepted. That’s not what the workplace is like. we’re 20-somethings. it’s very much, it’s not like we can’t change the game of what office culture is, but we’re the bottom of the food chain here.

Dayna Gowan (16:35.822)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Diamond (16:36.536)
how do we kind of carry over some of these skills into what, like any of these improv skills into the workplace, knowing that we don’t have a ton of confidence there, we don’t have a lot of ground to speak up, we’re terrified to make mistakes or make a fool of ourselves or to say the wrong thing. So it really kind of goes against everything that’s going on in our brain at that moment.

Dayna Gowan (17:03.726)
And just take it a breath because I so relate. I know exactly what you’re talking about. I worked in employee wellness or employee well-being. And so that was kind of a focus of ours. That’s a huge point in employee wellness is company culture. Now in employee wellness and worksite wellness, they tend to focus on physical activity. So in my job, had to

lead and create a lot of walking challenges and stuff, which is fine. But what I really wanted to focus on is the company culture. What you’re talking to is like, creating more psychological safety in the workplace for everyone to be able to speak up. so, I mean, my business now has presentations on psychological safety using the skills of improv, right? And how did you can create

that culture that is safe for people, every experience to speak up. Now, that is Dream Big, right? We make changes little by little and you keep making changes the more you talk about it. Unfortunately, psychological safety and DEI and all those good things are having a backlash right now in this current administration, which is very unfortunate. So we have to do the best we can. All right.

Like that’s my dream big world is creating a company culture where everyone can speak up. Now to your point, that is not where we’re at yet. So I will, I will accept y’all. Yes. And I’ll accept where we are and then what can we do about it? So I get it. Right. I was in your boat too, 20 something I had to give. I was a again in worksite wellness.

I was a wellness coordinator for a large company in South Carolina. I had to give a lot of wellness presentations to departments and teams. And they were very general presentations like how to get more physical activity, how to eat better. And I always struggled with this because I wasn’t a parent. I was like, what do I know about people who are older and they have a lot more to deal with? What do I know about them being healthier?

Dayna Gowan (19:24.406)
And here’s the thing, right? We all come at it in different experiences. I can’t change that. But what I can change is how I present the information. And if I can present it more effectively as a speaker, that might get them motivated, inspired, reflective. It might actually have them go, well, I could do this small step, right? We could focus on small changes.

And if I was the better speaker and facilitator that I am now in going back into that position, I have so many ideas, but I could give them more space to reflect. And like, it’s not about me as the speaker, but I was so in my head at the time, I thought it was. It’s not about me as the speaker, it’s about my message. It’s what I can give them, it’s what they can learn. so, you know, bringing that back to, you might feel like you are at the bottom of the food chain, you might be.

at the bottom of the food chain, having a good relationship with your manager is key. In workplace wellness, the research constantly says that direct report management is like 90 % the key to an employee’s wellbeing, positive or negative. And so that is again on the leader to be a good leader, which again, you cannot change. But hopefully you can have a good relationship with your manager.

You can talk to them, you can tell them, you can ask questions more. You can schedule more meetings. I had managers, terrible managers that I really didn’t want to meet with. But if you’re stuck in that position, in that job for a while, schedule meetings with them, ask for more FaceTime with them, ask more questions. And then as you get going, you kind of can see what your skills are. What are you better at than others? And so,

As I was coming up, you know, in my late 20s, I realized I’m not great at like organization or I’m good, I can plan, but like, I’m not gonna sit and organize my emails. Like I’d rather be out talking to people. I would rather be out creating presentations, creating things. Like I’m a creator creative and that was viewed favorably, right? And so you start to learn.

Dayna Gowan (21:40.044)
your skills, what you’re good at, what you’re not, and then you can ask for more of those projects. And then you look good, right? And then also if your management sucks, I’m sorry, like I truly am. It’s on them to do better. And I hate that they’re not doing better. So I’m sorry about that. You hopefully will be in a position to lead whether it is like you’re listed as a manager or not. So you can take that on yourself to be the team player that you want to be, that you want to have.

Right? So can you support your teammates? Can you make others look good? Because in turn, you usually look good. Can you listen more than speak and hold the space? Can you share thoughts? Even if it’s scary, like, can you share like, hey, I, know, I see we’re doing this. Like, I have a few questions. Can you ask more questions? Can you be more curious? Can you be the team player that you want to have?

And that’s the best answer I can give. I have so many fixes and solutions I would love to make in the corporate world, but for now, if you are in that space, be the team player that you want to have as well. And then when you are in leadership, be the better leader for your direct reports. Do better, be better. And it’s one thing to say it, it’s another thing to feel it, and it’s another thing to practice it. And you don’t just become a good leader overnight. You can become a good leader by seeing what not to do.

and learning from other people’s mistakes, but you do have to practice. And so I’ve learned a ton of great leadership skills, support skills from improv and then public speaking in general has just progressed, increased, improved. Like what word am I looking for? Just blossomed my career, not being afraid to speak, you know, for presentations and off the cuff is so helpful too.

Jess Diamond (23:34.668)
Yeah, I mean, you’d really have to think on your feet because it goes back to you have to learn how to listen first and you can’t listen with already planning what you’re going to say. And I think that’s something that will translate across any relationship, any conversation, any meeting you’re in, like no matter what you’re doing, where you’re at in your life, who you’re with, that is going to translate over. I mean, I have a personal training client that comes to mind who does not listen and it kills me.

Dayna Gowan (23:45.058)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Diamond (24:04.086)
And it’s so hard to have a conversation with someone to give form corrections to make sure you’re not going to injure yourself for him to not listen. I will start, I’ve just started asking him like, what were the corrections I gave you? Because I need you to pay attention to what I’m saying. Like this is for your benefit. I’m not speaking for my own benefit. Like this has nothing to do with me. I do the exercise correctly. yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Dayna Gowan (24:04.632)
So frustrated.

Dayna Gowan (24:17.311)
Mmm.

Dayna Gowan (24:25.998)
Alright, I want you to be safe. Please don’t hurt yourself on my watch, please.

Jess Diamond (24:32.142)
Yeah, that’s probably where it impacts me is like, don’t hurt yourself when you’re in my care and I’m supposed to be taking care of you. So I see like how that translates over. just don’t, I mean, I think as you progress into your later twenties, you do start to get more responsibilities and lead more meetings and find your voice a little bit more to speaking up. But I would even say, I mean, I am an avid over thinker and as much as I don’t want to be, I…

Dayna Gowan (24:59.51)
Yeah. Guilty. Guilty.

Jess Diamond (25:00.704)
I know I am. I’ll have a conversation I will ruminate for forever. So I want to shift into that side of the conversation of how can improv help with the overthinking side of things so that you’re not constantly replaying the conversation over and over again in your head is like, it was a 15 minute conversation over lunch and now it’s turning into the rest of your day, just you talking to yourself of why did you say that?

And like, I know that that was something that would happen in improv too. While I’d be in the class, I’d go home after and be like, I could have said this instead, or I have the answer for this one, or it could have been better. Like, if you’re an over thinker, you’re gonna overthink in general. So how do we stop overthinking everything that we say or vast majority of the things that we say?

Dayna Gowan (25:34.287)
Mm-hmm.

Dayna Gowan (25:51.34)
Again, just like, let’s all take a collective sigh, because I think if you’re an over thinker, you feel that tremendously. I jumped into taking a four week improv class this month, right? I’m on the third class. Same thing, right? I’m super rusty, haven’t done improv. There’s an improv teacher who says, you don’t get rusty, you just break bad habits and keep the good ones. So I like that reframe there.

Same thing, like I was in a scene and I was struggling. I wasn’t listening, like all these skills I talk about and I’m like, no, I wasn’t listening and I talk about this in my job. I should be good at this, right? Like that should, I should be good at this. And it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. It’s okay, we’re practicing, right? The thing about improv is most of it is in a low stakes environment that you practice. You practice, you make mistakes, you see that.

it’s not that bad, right? Like the world didn’t end, right? No one died except maybe their character died on stage, right? Or something and you had to take care of them. like you start to just like over time get okay with mistakes and failure. And you can use whatever word is more comfortable. If failure’s not a great word for you, but mistakes works. You start to get comfortable with just being like, I’m not perfect. And actually,

I never have been, but you kind of release that perfection.

Jess Diamond (27:17.304)
Sorry. Ryan, I am recording.

Jess Diamond (27:22.094)
Okay, sorry, keep going.

Dayna Gowan (27:24.249)
good, no, do you need to check on anything?

Jess Diamond (27:26.526)
No, I told my boyfriend that was like, do not come in. I am recording. Do not like, no noise. Don’t talk to me. And he’s just like, darling. And I’m like, what did I just tell you? Okay. Keep going. I’m so sorry. Keep going.

Dayna Gowan (27:30.913)
You

Dayna Gowan (27:36.238)
I didn’t hear it, so you’re good. Yeah. No, it’s fine. You start to just get more accustomed to making mistakes and realizing that you’re not perfect. And you never have been, but you’ve held this high standard for yourself that you have to be. And you realize that mistakes happen all the time. But in improv, yes, improv is about, it helps to be funny.

It’s more memorable when it’s funny, but improv turns mistakes into happy accidents. You see in scenes that the mistake is the funny thing that comes up. Like you say a word weird or wrong, and then like your scene partners jump in and like, you know, they can use that and they can run and it creates this whole crazy scene that would not have happened had you not made that mistake. so in speaking, just relating it to my world first,

I feel like uninhibited now as a speaker. That’s what makes me more dynamic is I can make more mistakes on stage and then I can make a little joke out of it. Or it doesn’t even have to be a joke. I can just call attention to it and then move on. And then I’m not in my head going, oh my God, I just said that word weird. They’re gonna think I’m not good enough to be up here on stage. They’re gonna ask like why I’m here speaking to them. Cause that’s what I would do, right? I would be in my head like worried about my credibility.

as soon as the first mistake got made and that the second that you do that, you’re in your head and you’re not focused on your audience. So improv and performance level training, clowning as a thing right now, it all focuses the attention on the audience. What are they doing? Right? If they’re all on their phones, maybe it’s a big emergency, but they’re not looking at you. I always like to…

like scan the room, obviously your head’s up, you scan the room and you make eye contact with who’s paying attention or who’s looking at you because those are the people who are gonna get the most out of it. And I would see somebody who would be on their phone or not paying attention, clearly not paying attention. And then I would get in my head and I’d go, my gosh, they hate it. Like they’re gonna go home or they’re gonna go back to their office and tell their team or at home, their partner how they wasted so much time listening to this presentation.

Dayna Gowan (30:03.572)
And spoiler alert, nobody’s doing that. We are all so busy with our lives. If your presentation or speaking engagement, whatever, doesn’t make an impact, they move on. If it does, the benefit, that you’ve inspired, you’ve motivated, you’ve persuaded, you’ve helped make some kind of change, or at least get an idea in someone’s head.

But if it doesn’t land, they move on. It’s rare. And maybe if they’re a judgmental person, like my mom, who doesn’t listen, so I don’t think she’ll hear this, maybe they’ll say something, but it’s really rare. Like they’ve already moved past. They’re thinking about dinner. They’re thinking about their next thing. all that, like recognizing that I’m not at the center of the world. I’m an only child. So, and I,

People tell me like I share well, I don’t seem like an only child, but maybe that phrase sounds like I am a big time only child, but I’m not the center of the world. I’m not the center of anybody’s world. And that actually feels really freeing to be able to make mistakes and not be perfect. I will, I’ll admit in my twenties, I did not have these skills. So going back to your question, I wish I started improv much earlier.

Jess Diamond (31:14.19)
you

Dayna Gowan (31:28.204)
I started improv when I was 30. So, and I wasn’t a theater kid, I was a sports kid. I was totally nervous on stage. I conquered my fear of public speaking. I started to around 26. So from 26 to 30, I was really working on public speaking, but I was really tied to my notes. I was tied to my script. I was really robotic. Like I’d be like, I’m gonna do this gesture now. And I’m like raising my hand if you can’t see, like just super robotic, super in my head, like.

This is the next line I have to say, I skipped a line. They’re going to know. And you can almost see like my eyes turned up like thinking more than turned out to the audience. So now relating this back to people who might not speak in their job, but are overthinkers. get it. I would do the same thing. I’d be driving home from whatever it was. I coached volleyball on the side and I would, kids are brutal by the way, like youth volleyball, teenagers, like 14 year olds.

17 year olds, my God, like they will stare into your soul and just make you feel unworthy. So I get it. I would drive home and be like, why did I say that dumb thing? my God, like they’re, that was so dumb. And just basically like stupid, stupid, stupid. And I would replay conversations. I would have conversations before they happened so that I would hope that they would play out better. And they never did. I was still awkward and like.

Weird. practice, improv helped me. Hopefully you can find some kind of skills to just get you more comfortable in your body. I’ve done a lot of inner work. I work with a coach as well, so I can speak to the benefits of coaching. We’ve worked a ton on just feeling enough, being enough as I am. I don’t have to do anything else. I don’t have to

be anything else. I am enough as I am. I do meditations on that. I do affirmations on that. Three years into the coaching work, I’m still having to repeat, I am enough. I am enough. But, know, repeating it and saying it is one thing. At some point, I actually started to feel and believe I am enough. And so now I can show up in spaces and say, I am enough here.

Dayna Gowan (33:53.92)
As I am, I have opinions, I have thoughts, I have things that I want to say that matter. Maybe I don’t say them the best, maybe I can work on that, but I’m here and I wanna share and I be a part of this and I’m enough as I am. And so it takes a huge, I guess commitment is the word, a huge commitment to yourself to really embody that belief.

that I’m enough. you know, coaching, performance, any kind of outlet that can teach that goes a long way.

Jess Diamond (34:33.698)
Yeah, want to say that becomes more true with age and maturity definitely plays a role in all of that. even still, I had a conversation with someone two days ago. And by the time this episode comes out, I’ll be 29. I had a conversation with someone two days ago, and I was in my head for the next day after, anxious of, did I say too much? Did I not say the right thing? Did I make her feel awkward? Did I do this and blah, blah, blah?

Dayna Gowan (34:49.934)
Hey!

Jess Diamond (35:03.214)
the rabbit’s chase that runs through your head. it’s like, I’m telling that to you guys because I’m in my late 20s and it’s still something that goes on in my own head. And I’ve taken the improv class. I’ve done a lot of the internal work and this is something that still continues to go on. who knows? Like it might just be, you’re an over thinker, you’re typically more of an anxious person. And that comes with the territory and it really comes into

trying your best to think before you speak, which you do have to do an improv. Like, yes, it is a quicker reaction time and life, can take a little bit longer of pauses. Even an improv, you can take a pause. mean, a lot of, I would say the humor comes in that quick reaction, but it’s okay to think before you speak to make sure that the words you’re saying are coming out effectively and…

Dayna Gowan (35:38.947)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Diamond (35:59.256)
they’re painting you in a good light as well as making the other person feel comfortable in your presence too. I think that is a big part of it. And that’s also something that would happen on stage in an improv show is like you want the audience to be a part of this and for them to not feel uncomfortable where they wanna leave or like are shifting in their seats, like, my gosh, can this just be over already so I can move on with my life? Like it’s gonna happen in life regardless. What I wanna ask you, Dana is,

Dayna Gowan (36:16.846)
You

Jess Diamond (36:29.044)
is if you could give one improv rule or mindset shift that you’ve learned from improv that someone could use this week, right now, to stop themselves from overthinking when they speak, what would that be?

Dayna Gowan (36:46.702)
Great question, yeah. And again, totally relate to the overthinking and I’ll just, let’s see. mean, first off, yes and mindset is not really related to overthinking, but it is just like been such a life-changing mindset. So I got two, I got two for you, okay. Yes and mindset, saying yes and in general is…

Jess Diamond (37:07.352)
Okay.

Dayna Gowan (37:14.622)
So powerful. Now, yes and is not about saying yes to everything. A lot of people think it is. It’s not, you can totally have boundaries. You can say yes and to yourself by saying no to something, right? But yes and is basically accept and build. So you accept where you are and you build on it. So in a scene, you accept the suggestion, you accept what your scene partner said and you add to it. In life, for instance, for me, starting my business,

If I didn’t say yes and I would say, well, I want to start my own business. No, I can’t do that because I don’t have my MBA. don’t, I don’t, I didn’t even take a business class. I don’t know the first thing about doing business. This won’t succeed. No, I can’t do that. And I can’t go back to school. I don’t have time. No. Who wants to hear a podcast about me talking about improv? Like, what do I know? I’m a newbie improviser. Like nobody wants to hear me speak. So no, but no, because like all the nos, I could totally shut myself down.

I’m not here now in this conversation with you, nothing has been started and I’m currently sitting in my corporate job wondering what if. And that’s what no because, no but, yes but does. And we live in a no but or no because, a yes but world. We live in that in the corporate environment. So being able to say yes and for sure.

Jess Diamond (38:35.63)
I think we live in that in general. mean, even I’ll take back the personal training. have a different client who’d be like, no, I can’t do that because, and I’m like, no, you can, and I’m showing you how. It’s everywhere. It isn’t just corporate. think it is a mindset that is kind of just instilled in us of no, no, no, no, no.

Dayna Gowan (38:49.294)
you

Dayna Gowan (38:57.016)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. so being able to say yes and to ourselves, even if like the world is not saying yes to us, maybe we can say it to ourselves. So I want to start this business on public speaking and improv. Yes. And I can explore the Applied Improv Network and see what that is. And I can buy books and read more about it. And I can talk to other speakers and see how they run their businesses.

and I can start the podcast and talk to other people and it’ll be fun and, and, and, and. And maybe four or five ands later, I actually come up with the idea that sticks. know, maybe not all the ideas stick, but honestly, again, yeah, living in this no-but world and being able to say yes, and to myself is like incredibly powerful, so powerful.

Jess Diamond (39:52.738)
Yeah. And I want to, let’s just kind of run through what the opposite would look like of, can’t start, no, I can’t do this podcast. It’s too much time. No, I can’t do this, look into this group because they are going to see me as an outcast or like see me for who I really am. No, I can’t do this. And like now you’re just like, if you, the way I’m thinking of it, like as you were saying yes, Anne, I just kind of felt like the circle is getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And then it’s like with the no’s, like you’re starting with your circle and it’s getting smaller.

Dayna Gowan (40:11.372)
You’ve talked yourself out of it.

Dayna Gowan (40:18.348)
Yeah.

Jess Diamond (40:22.742)
and smaller and smaller and smaller. And it’s like, you fully are talking yourself out of the things that you actually want because of what? Because you’re scared of judgment, of failure, of mistakes, of starting over. it’s, yeah, feeling silly, looking stupid. It’s everything. But if you give yourself the chance to think the opposite, and I’ll play this game of like, and then what?

Dayna Gowan (40:32.27)
Scared. Looking silly.

Jess Diamond (40:48.494)
And I would do it with my clients if they’re having their spirals. It’s like, okay, worst case scenario. And they’ll give it. And I was like, and then what happens? And then what happens? And we keep going until there’s like, well, and then I would do this. I was like, is that end of world? And they were like, no. I was like, great. So now we know what happens if the worst thing ever happens. Let’s go to the other end. Say like the best thing. And then like paint that picture. And it’s the same thing of like no, but versus yes, and is, and then what?

Dayna Gowan (40:48.91)
Mmm.

Dayna Gowan (41:15.582)
And what if it works out, right? I’m a very anxious person. I have done therapy on anxiety, have not taken medication, but like it’s been close to that. So I’ll just say that I’m very anxious person, constantly in my head, constantly judging myself, very judgmental of myself, very outspoken inner critic. So I get all the things. So just having that yes and like that you can say yes and to yourself. my God.

I know yes and, like, I think people generally know it, you hear it, it can sound cliche. It is, again, so, like, so powerful to just embody that yes and mindset. Okay, so that was my first one. And then I think, you know, the skill, there’s so many, so it’s hard to, it’s so hard to pick. I mean, listening is such a superpower, but it honestly, what’s coming top of surface, top of mind,

is the judgment, the using mistakes as learning opportunities, as happy accidents, not viewing them as failure, which they have been to me in the past. And again, just the ability to look silly. like, I’ve struggled a lot in improv scenes with when I do get laughs, which is rare, sometimes it’s rare. And I hear laughter.

my first immediate response is like, why did they laugh at me? Why are they laughing at me? Right? Because it’s like, it’s this personal thing of like, you don’t want to be laughed at. So again, there’s some inner work that still needs to be addressed of like, something, this some little Dana was hurt a long time ago when she was laughed at. And so now there’s this fear of looking silly. So

An exercise that I like to do that I’ve learned and I learned from someone and I’ve adapted it to my own, but an exercise that I really like to do with just about anybody, corporate trainings, coaching clients, you name it, is taking off the jacket of judgment. And it’s a whole visualization. It’s like, you know, I walk you through this idea that you’re wearing this heavy, heavy coat, heavy winter coat, and you feel the weight of it. You feel it’s weighing down your shoulders. It’s like,

Dayna Gowan (43:37.888)
affecting who you are and what you want to be. And then we take it off, you know, and then you hold it out, you feel the weight of it and we throw it away. We get rid of it. And then you instantly feel lighter, like your shoulders can lift more and your arms can move without being weighed down and you’re free almost. And so that’s a visualization of the idea of this jacket of judgment that we wear.

every single day. And we judge others for sure, especially right now in the US, a lot going on politically. There’s a lot of judgment, Politically, not politically, there’s so much judgment, but a lot internally too, the judgment of ourselves. honestly, if we could take away some of the judgment of ourselves, maybe that affects how we judge others too. And so just having that freedom. And so you said with improv, like,

they think quicker and they can respond quicker and that is the funny part. A lot of times they can respond quicker because they’ve released the judgment. So it’s not that they’re these fast witty people. Some of them are like they are super talented, yes. But a lot of it is they have released the judgment. I actually saw a post and this is like research related. They have like, think kill switch to the or like code switched or whatever the term is.

They’ve shut down that judgment part of their brain that then allows them to try new things unbarred, free of judgment, whether it kills or it slaps or it bombs, they’re going to try it and then they’re going to learn from it. And then they can either do it again in an improv scene or in life, they can do it again, or they can learn and say, okay, that didn’t work. I’m going to try something else. Okay. I had this conversation with somebody and it was kind of awkward. And for me, I go, now I say, well,

Maybe that’s not my person. Maybe we just didn’t, we didn’t mesh. Like we were just not in the right head space. It could be timing. It could just be personality. Like we just didn’t mesh. Honestly, having like recognizing that not everybody is gonna be your friend is not everyone’s gonna like you is a big lesson learned. And that did come in my thirties too. Not everyone’s gonna like me.

Dayna Gowan (46:04.0)
In my speaking, not everyone’s gonna like me on the improv stage, and that happens a lot, because I’ve got some work to do and learn. Not everyone’s gonna like what I say as I talk, you know? And that’s okay. The perfectionist and like the needs attention little child in me wanted everyone to like me, and I can release that now because I’ve released some judgment, I’ve accepted myself as I am. So yeah, that’s the big answer, but.

Acceptance and releasing the judgment are huge improv skills that again have played major parts of my life.

Jess Diamond (46:43.106)
Yeah. And I think the judgment with the overthinking go hand in hand is like, you’re overthinking what you’re saying. You’re overthinking like in the moment. So you’re just babbling word vomiting. And I’ll even like tell my clients, I was like, I word vomit. I’m like, sorry, I just word vomited all over you. Let me sum up what I just said. Or even my clients will say, there’s like, I’m babbling. I know I am. And I was like, no, no, this is you’re giving me information. This is helpful. It’s like creating.

Dayna Gowan (46:50.039)
Yes.

Jess Diamond (47:10.434)
Like I try my best to create the spaces where it’s like, yeah, babble away because like this is a space for you. but I also do enjoy conversations where it’s succinct into the point where you’re like, great, this is what it is. Not when it’s coaching coaching. I’m like, yes, give me all the words. but in regular conversations, I’d say it’s nice to have straight through conversations where it doesn’t feel like one person is going through.

Dayna Gowan (47:26.96)
yeah.

Jess Diamond (47:38.39)
is like, basically they’re having a conversation with themselves. And you’re like, OK, OK, OK, and going through it. And I know everyone has a habit and a tendency of doing that themselves. And then that is when the overthinking comes into play afterwards. It’s like, OK, I just said so much to that person. And I don’t even remember if they said anything or something I do. It’s like, I don’t even know if I asked them a question. Like, they asked me something. And I gave this whole story. And then I never asked them anything in return.

Dayna Gowan (48:02.83)
You

Jess Diamond (48:08.085)
And again, it goes into the overthinking, goes into the judgment. And then that judgment is of yourself of why did you say all that? And then it’s of thinking of the judgment of the other person. It’s like that person now doesn’t like me or I really wanted them to like me. Or if it’s your boss, it’s like, I want my boss to respect me. I want this promotion. I want to do these things and build my career. And now I feel like I just jeopardized all of that. And what we’re trying to tell you here throughout this episode is that the

the silliness, the non-judgment, the thinking on your feet, like all of those skills, yeah, they might not necessarily translate directly into the workplace if you’re not gonna have a whole improv scene or play an improv game together just as a casual work meeting. But what I do, and Dana, you can correct me if I’m wrong, like what I do see it translating as is like you’re building up

these muscles, I have a big thing of like talking about muscles, like you’re building up these muscles on how they work. So then they can show up in different areas in your life in the workplace in your relationships, when you’re having an awkward conversation with a stranger, like they’re gonna show up and you’re like, I know how to use this muscle now that it’s here, because I’ve strengthened it through improv.

Dayna Gowan (49:27.486)
all good stuff. Yeah. I think, you know, I mean, in every scene I do, every speech I give, like even this episode, like I’m going to walk away and be like, you know, I’ll be taking a shower later or going for a walk. I should have said this. I should have said this. Right. And what I’ve realized is those should have said they get quicker. They get quicker and quicker and quicker each time. Each time I practice, each time I try something new.

Yes, I look silly, but hopefully it’s in a low stakes environment that I looked silly. And so then when I’m in the higher stakes environment, I adjust and I do better. And so improv is, it’s essentially low stakes play. It is a chance to be yourself. And I think that is where the confidence shines when you know who and what you truly are too.

Improv is not about being funny. Yes, like you know it as a funny thing, as a comedy, but the best improvisers and the best performers, everyone, speakers all around are the people who know who they are in and out and they’re accepting of it. They’ve accepted themselves and then hopefully they accept everyone else. Again, I know in work specifically it is not an accepting place and so we feel judged and then we say, my God, I just

I just word vomited and they’re going to think I’m a talker and I don’t listen and I’m not up for promotion, whatever. And hopefully eventually you can practice that, right? So practice goes a long way. Again, in low stakes, I learned through Toastmasters. It’s really whatever kind of training works for you. So maybe you’re a good speaker, like presenter wise, you’re good with the slides.

but you find that you get nervous at Q &A or you don’t answer succinctly. There are ways to train that. Toastmasters has table topics, right? In my coaching, we do similar or I do a lot of improv exercises that get you out of your head so that you can respond quicker and then be like, that was a cool way I responded and I didn’t judge that. And then you move on. So honestly, I think the thing is practice.

Dayna Gowan (51:47.47)
Practice in environments that are safe for you to practice, for you to make mistakes. And so then when you are in the higher stakes, I’m doing higher stakes in quotes, you’re giving that big presentation to the board. You’re having the talk with management that you want a promotion or that you want more out of your job. You’re interviewing for a big time job, right? You’re having that talk with that client that doesn’t listen and be like, hey, can you listen more or how can I help you?

listen, whatever it is, you’re having that kind of big talk, you now have the skills to do it. And again, it’s practice, it’s practice, it’s learning by failing, it’s learning by mistakes, picking yourself up again and trying again and again and again. And it’s pretty life-changing when you can accept yourself for who you are and also accept like,

This improv scene went the way it did and it’s in the moment and I cannot change it now. I can’t go in the past. This conversation happened and it is the way it happened. It is the way it unfolded. Sometimes conversations unfold beautifully and we discover new things and sometimes they don’t, they’re duds. I do the same thing with my podcast guests, similar to what you did with me, but I say, hey, if we talk about cats for an hour and a half, we talk about cats and that’s the way the conversation went.

Obviously it is my job as an interviewer to guide the conversation, but if it’s a fun conversation about cats and we had a good time, well, that’s what unfolded. So it’s also recognizing like in the moment, this is how it unfolded. And I accept that. And I’m not going to be in my head dreaming about what could have been. I’m going to move on and be in the moment, mindfully presently in the moment now, because when I’m present, not in my head, but

present with the other person, with the environment, good things happen.

Jess Diamond (53:45.142)
Yeah, I think a really big part of what you said is like getting out of your head. It’s like loosen up. One, I think this is also something that comes with age is like life is not that serious. So chill out, which is easier said than done. But you’re 22 with your first job. It’s not that serious. It’s really not. You’re doing like basic work here. It’s nothing is on the line. No one’s going to die. It’s kind of where I like.

Dayna Gowan (53:49.57)
Mm-hmm.

Dayna Gowan (53:57.422)
It’s not.

So yeah.

Jess Diamond (54:12.856)
You’re in marketing. No one’s going to die if you have a typo on something. It’s going to be like, oops, had a typo.

Dayna Gowan (54:13.571)
Yeah.

Dayna Gowan (54:18.584)
But what funny things could maybe happen out of that typo, right? If you actually like, you know, if you can joke about it sometimes you can’t. Yeah, keep going.

Jess Diamond (54:25.642)
Yeah, yeah. And I know like embarrassment is definitely a huge factor of that is like, don’t want to yet it’s much to going back to the point of the story you told of like, it’s so freeing that I can be on stage and make a mistake and just like be like, oops, I made a mistake. I said that word weird. And I do that too. When I’m in conversation, I was like, whoa, all of sudden I had an accent with that word. I don’t know where that came from. And then we move on. And those are like such minuscule examples. Whereas I know in the workplace, it is

so much greater for you as in your 20s to be listening. It’s like, okay, but if I make a mistake on a presentation and the board is watching this and my boss is ready to approve me and brag about me and now can’t because I said this thing so incorrectly. It is a little different, but it is learning to brush it off and you can still acknowledge the mistake that was made. It’s like, hey, I realized I made this.

I’m learning from this, I will try my best not to make that happen again. And then you move on. So you don’t necessarily, like make a joke out of it. It’s more regardless, acknowledge that it was there, that it happened. And then that moment’s over. If you ruminate, it’s just gonna get worse.

Dayna Gowan (55:35.19)
Acknowledge. Yeah.

Dayna Gowan (55:41.922)
Yeah, and to that point with Age, I did a whole solo episode and I don’t do a ton of solo episodes. really like guest episodes. get a lot of energy from guests. So I do rare solo episodes, but I did one about, it was when I turned 35 and when I was a 20 something, like 25, I envisioned myself at 35, like not given a flying F, like just like I’m,

I’m so chill with myself. Like I’m so accepting of myself. I’m so confident. I’m this good speaker. Like I had this whole vision of myself just like totally free, didn’t care what anyone else thinks, showed up as myself. I’m here no matter what, deal with it, like it. I like myself, you know, all this stuff, right? All these like power pose affirmations. And what I realized when I turned 35 is I was that person.

I mean, I wasn’t so like, I don’t give an F what you think, like whatever, don’t, you know, but I was very confident. I was confident in my speaking skills. I was confident in myself as a friend, a person, a worker, colleague. Like I had more confidence than I ever dreamed, but it wasn’t because I magically turned 35. Like that didn’t matter. was because I practiced. did, I really put myself out there. I was super uncomfortable.

doing Toastmasters, conquering my fear of public speaking, trying improv and doing terrible improv shows in front of an audience of two other improvisers a lot of times, right? Like the improv shows aren’t great when you’re first starting out and doing a lot of failing, making mistakes and learning to when I got to 35, I could actually say and sit back and go, I am that person I wanted to be not because it magically happened, but because I worked for it.

So I think that’s essentially what your whole message is about too, is like, have to try new things, put yourself out there, go for it, right? Like you listen to anybody’s journey, watch any kind of documentary. It’s not because they sat behind, and obviously you can learn by observation, but you have to take a chance and try something new and kind of step out and just see what happens to see what comes up. Discovery.

Dayna Gowan (58:05.652)
is a big word for me. That was my word last year. then possibilities is my word this year. So it’s like, what possibilities could come up if I’m in the moment? If I’m not in my head judging, what can come out of this talk, this conversation, if I’m presence? And presence is a big thing too, right? Because if you’re present, if you’re here, if you’re listening, you’re totally just in the moment, then you’re not in your head. You’re not judging.

You’re not like, I said that word weird. Like, what do they think? It’s like, it’s very counterintuitive, right? You think like, I should be more like polished and present myself as I want to be accepted. And it’s like, whoa, how about you present yourself as you are and let the audience love you, let yourself love you, present yourself as you are. Because the minute you try to fake it, I know there’s fake it till you make it, I get it. But if you’re faking it, it can show.

and it can be obvious. so just showing up as you are, mistakes and all, flawed and all, yes, 20 something and all. I get it, Gen Z or whatever generation we’re on, Gen Alpha, they’re getting criticized to all hell. And millennials got a bad rep too. That’s, a millennial. Like the younger generations get judged so hard and it’s so frustrating. And it’s different paths than the older generations had to take.

Jess Diamond (59:25.858)
Mm-hmm.

Dayna Gowan (59:31.384)
But again, it goes back to like, who can you be in the moment? Can you be present? Who can you serve? Can you serve yourself? Can you be the team member you want? Can you show up for yourself? Say yes and to yourself. All those motivational things. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Jess Diamond (59:46.964)
Yep. Yeah. And honestly, I think that’s the way we got to end this episode. So thank you, Dana, so much for being a guest on How to 20 something. Where can people find you get in touch or learn more about the work you do, maybe ask their boss to bring you in and help run an improv type course for them so that so that it’s a less judgmental environment. But how can how can people get in touch with you?

Dayna Gowan (01:00:12.214)
Yes, and please let’s do it. I’m all in. You can find me on Instagram. I’m at ImprovlySpeaking. That’s ImprovLY. I have to spell it out because the transcripts usually spell it as ImprobablySpeaking, but it’s ImprobablySpeaking, ImprovLY speaking. On LinkedIn, I’m at DanaGowan. I post a lot on LinkedIn because I am talking about work stuff a lot and how this kind of relates, but I post on Instagram too.

I’m not great at social media. I’m an older millennial. So whatever. I accept that. I post when I post and you know what, we’re not going to judge ourselves and beat ourselves up for that. And then my website is ImprovlySpeaking.com. My podcast is also called Improvly Speaking. I have on a lot of guests who are either speakers, improvisers, did improv classes for fun or for like public speaking skills.

And I also have people who do improv in their daily lives, but don’t call it improv. So I really cast a wide net of guests there. honestly, like I, again, not in, I didn’t do journalism, not a broadcaster, not a reporter, like never saw myself having a podcast. And then I had a previous one and then I wanted to go solo and

Just saying yes and to the podcast has been so much fun. It’s a great way to meet people. It’s so fun to have these conversations. I get to talk to cool people like you. And so, you know, that’s the product of saying yes and there. reach out. Any questions? I offer corporate trainings, I also offer one-on-one or small group public speaking coaching, which I gave a little glimpse of with the jacket of judgment.

We talk a lot about your mindset of public speaking. can do the like, the like give a speech or presentation, get feedback. Happy to do that, but I like the more practicing in a lower stakes environment. And then like giving you kind of like aha moments or like lessons learned. So that way when you’re in that higher stakes conversation, you’re like, yeah, I did that thing that I was so worried about. Like, I crushed it.

Dayna Gowan (01:02:29.026)
And I was really myself there. I used vocal variety and I didn’t even have to think about it because I showed up as myself. So, lots of fun stuff and I would just love to hear from you and hear, yeah, we’ll stop there.

Jess Diamond (01:02:43.15)
Yeah, and all of her information will be linked in the show notes for you guys to access and check her out right this instant. Otherwise, this does conclude another episode of How to 20 something. So if you liked what you heard, learn something new or know someone who needs to hear this episode because they’re an avid over thinker or need to take an improv class and this is their sign to go do so. Please share it. Pass it along to that friend. Post on social media.

do something to help me reach all the 20 somethings navigating the most confusing decade of their lives. And as always, I can’t wait to be in your headphones again next week with another brand new episode. And stop.